Listening As A Retention Strategy with Shani Dowell

Listening Is a Retention Strategy with Shani Jackson Dowell
[00:00:00] 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: All right, folks. Welcome back to the Exit Interview, a podcast for Black educators with me, your host, Dr. Asia. We're back in the studio. If you have not heard, folks, we're in a whole different zone right now. We've been, uh, archived in the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture as a part of New York Public Library, and so I made that announcement in the last episode.
Go check that out. And so now we're rolling forward with all the folks from here on out, and from episode one forward are gonna be in the Schomburg. So if you haven't heard about that, check us out. Looks like my guest didn't know that. So, uh, we have a new guest today, and we can talk about that. Uh, welcome to the show, Shani Jackson-Dowell.
How are you today?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I'm great, thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, glad to have you here. Um, yeah, so I did-- I think when we, you and I talked, I was saying I [00:01:00] was thinking about getting it archived, but I couldn't announce it, and
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: It's official.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: It's
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yes.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: super excited.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Congrats
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: but yeah, thank you so much. So, uh, but today's not about the Schomburg, it's about your story on your exit interview, and so let's just go ahead and start off. Tell us a little bit about yourself. What would you like
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: to know?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yep. So, um, Shani Dowelll. I live in Nashville, Tennessee, originally from Houston, so I represent a lot of different places. Born in Philly, grew up in Houston, live in Nashville now, went to school in DC. So, um, I'm a founder and CEO. I, I founded a company called Possip, and we help, uh, schools, primarily schools, districts, and nonprofits listen to their community.
Um, I have two kids, two teenagers, and my daughter just started driving, which is life-changing,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: I, in a good way?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: a great way. In a great way. Um, yeah, you just get so much of your life back.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: I believe that. No, I believe that
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Um, so that's, [00:02:00] that's that. Yeah. And, um, I like to Peloton. So if any folks are Pel- find me, uh, my, my hashtag is Willmonger. Uh, I don't think people know what...
It's, it's really a play on Killmonger from the Black Panther, but Will, like I have will, and I'm mongering will, but I don't, I think it gets lost on most people,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: That's all right.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: so
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: but you got it, and that's
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: that guy. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's my w- my leaderboard name on Peloton, so you can find me there a lot of times.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Awesome. Yeah, folks, I mean, Peloton people are serious out there, so I'm sure some folks will find you. Um, so yeah, go ahead and tell us a little bit about how did you get into education? How did you know that education was for you?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah, so I, I say my story is non-traditional, and it's interesting as I was thinking about it, both my sisters also had a bit of a... They were all, we all were teachers at some point, uh, but didn't start off on that path. So, um, so I went to Howard undergrad. Uh, my major was international business. Uh, but really, I mean, the truth is I majored in business 'cause it was the easiest application.
So,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: That's real. Thank you for your
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: [00:03:00] Yes
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Um, but I kinda ended up on that path, so then I ended up in business, and right after undergrad, I worked in consulting at Bain & Company, and that was the first seed that got planted because I, my job was consulting, but we had a partnership with Charlestown High School, which is a high school in Boston, and they had a mock trial team.
And so a few of us were volunteer. They, they, you know, they said, "Hey, we've got these opportunities if you wanna do some volunteer work." So I volunteered to coach mock trial at Charlestown High School, and what I found was I was so much more interested and excited in that work than I was in my day-to-day work, which my day-to-day work included a lot of Excel spreadsheets and PowerPoints,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Sure
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: just found the work with, you know, the students much more rewarding.
So about a year in, um, I ended up deciding to leave consulting, and so was looking for some high impact work. I actually did look into teaching, but when I was looking at it, and as you know, teaching is very cyclical, and I, I was kind of naive. So I was like, "Oh, there's all these cer- certifications I don't have," and, you know, I don't, I mean, I don't have money to be going back to school right now.[00:04:00] 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: yeah 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I ended up joining an organization that has now since expanded quite a bit, but at the time there was only one, uh, site called The Posse Foundation, and it's an access and equity, uh, program, so it gets, sends teams of students to college on full tuition leadership scholarships together. They had been existing in New York for 10 years, and so Boston was its first replication, and so I was lucky enough to be one of two people who helped launch that.
After that, went to business school. Um, after business school, tried consulting again. I did nonprofit consulting, which was a better fit, and it was great 'cause that was, at that time, it started to formulate in my mind what I said was, okay, we were working with a lot of youth serving organizations. And so I ha- I had, I had a great school experience, but also had kind of felt like school education wasn't really Too complicated to fix.
And so my theory coming out of that was like, okay, youth serving outside of kind of school, I'll be really... That'll be kind of where I make an impact. So I got really interested in youth serving organizations. Um, moved back, I was in the Bay Area at the time, moved back to Houston, [00:05:00] um, and ended up, uh, working at...
Someone I knew in Boston w- was working with KIPP, the National Network of Charter Schools at the time. So I ended up, um, joining KIPP, and I went to schools and visited schools, and I was just like, man, like this is solvable. Like we can, we can, we can make better schools for kids. And I was seeing, you know, the experiences of my nieces, my n- my nephew, and some of my cousins who were still, like they were going to school.
I would, you know, drop them to school and I'm like, "You don't have... Like, why don't you have books? Like what are you doing? What are you about to go do? You're a high school student going to school with no books. Like, what's about to happen here?" So I was seeing that, but then also seeing other places where there were great things happening in schools, and so that really convicted me that I could do something about it.
So all of that is what led me to teach. So I finally about, uh, eight years after college became a teacher, um, in Houston and got to teach in my home district, um, of Houston, Texas. So
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: So let me ask you a question 'cause we, we're gonna get into Houston. We wanna hear about that experience. You started off at Howard, business, you [00:06:00] know, got in, back and forth from school, different, uh, jobs. This whole time, what was your family saying? What was the community saying? Like, "You back in school again?"
Were they supportive? Did you like, "I don't feel like explaining myself." How did that go?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: It's so funny. Um, it's a great question. Well, I was always a little bit out of a, somewhat of a free spirit, so I had done a lot of, like, international travel. When I was in high school, I did a study abroad, uh, to Venezuela, like, when I was 15, to Costa Rica when I was, like, 20, uh, to Mexico when I was ni- So my parents were kinda used to me and, like, whatever.
And I was the youngest luckily, so they had, they didn't have all their hopes and dreams on me 'cause I was the third
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Just,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: child.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: don't do drugs.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yes.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yes
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Pretty much. They had, they had... Yes, they had magazine... Yes. ABC Afterschool Specials of the things not to do, but otherwise, yeah, they, they weren't too concerned. But it's funny 'cause when I was having my going away from Boston when I was moving to New- uh, California, my mom was, her whole thing was like, "Don't worry about your children."
Like s- like she said, "You know, you teach us not [00:07:00] to worry about you 'cause we could not have predicted that you would've, you know, gotten into Stanford Business School based on what you were like as a high school student. We would not have predicted that you would've gotten any of the things that happened for you."
So I think they just made peace with it, and it's funny, when I became a teacher, you know, again, to parents kinda they always have, like, aspirations that they... So when my dad was like, he was a little p- He was like, "Well, maybe you're gonna be a superintendent." You know, he was like, "Maybe you're going to be a teacher to go be a superintendent."
I was like,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Of course
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: "That's not really the goal, but"
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: I mean, it's never, the t- it's never good enough. I feel like
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yes.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: much like my dad. I say that when I was getting, finishing my doc- program, my dad's like, "Okay, you got your doctorate. Like, what's the next thing? Is there, like, a certification after this?" I'm like, "It's over.
Like,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: going
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: There's n- there's... No. I was like, "Well, I don't..." Yeah, that's what I told, I was like, "Uh, my only goal right now is to teach and to be a really good teacher and hope that I can do that 'cause that's a big enough job." And, but yeah. But I was like, "But if that's how you sleep at night, that's good. I'll let you."
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Right. They gotta have goals. They gotta as have
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: So tell us about your [00:08:00] first ti, your first years of teaching, where you taught, what your experience was versus what you thought it was gonna be. We w- we wanna
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Oh, that's funny. 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: had gone to so many schools and visit, spent a lot of time in schools, I laugh at myself 'cause I like, in my mind, I was gonna be such a great teacher.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Of course. Of
course, 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: like I j- I've had so much t- and it's so f- I, first of all, I thought I was gonna teach, I wanted, I, I, I wanted to teach, um, writing, and so I thought I was gonna be an English teacher.
But 'cause I had my business school background, I h- you know, I was a math teacher. They were like, you know, there are certain things that are just gonna happen, so that was one. Um, but I, oh, I just had such visions of how great I was gonna be. And I, I like to say that, um, some of those visions came to bear, but certainly not immediately.
Um, so I taught in Houston. I taught at Fonville Middle School, which I loved. I taught seventh grade, um, math and
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Oh, pause. Praise you. Everybody who listens to this show knows how I feel about seventh graders.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Oh, tell me
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: To me, I stopped at sixth grade. Seventh graders, when I taught middle school, used to make their [00:09:00] teachers cry, and I was like, the hormones
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I can imagine
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: and there's just, some of them are so mean.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I think I only cried once. 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: One 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: in their faces. I think I only teared up. I never, n- tears didn't come down my face in front of them, but I was, it was one of those times where one of my students, uh, it was, you know, you're like doing your best, level best to like get everybody together. And so someone who's not typically like, she is loud, but she doesn't typically raise her hand.
She usually just like speaks out. She raised her hand, so I was like, "Oh, this is good. She's raising her hand." And she raised her hand and said, "Miss, your zipper's down." And that wa- you know, it was just at the end of like, it was one of those times where I was just like, "Oh." That wa- that was the closest I got to tears.
But in general, I loved, I loved seventh. Seventh grade is actually right for me. I mean, I, I was the youngest, so I got picked on by my sisters. I have very thick skin.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: sure
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Things typically roll off. Uh, uh, but yes, seventh grade.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: and, uh, so five of my class periods, uh, were just kind of traditional seventh grade math, and I had an [00:10:00] English language learner seventh grade math.
So it was, you know, the things they throw at first-year teachers. I c- I was a little, I, you know, I was, I was like, "Oh, I see some of y'all," 'cause, you know, I'm a first-year teacher teaching.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: uh, there were two other teachers who were great, but they also did, each of them had a couple of like pre-AP, you know, honors classes that they were teaching
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: there, they were like, "We'll take this,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: but it was a great... It was, it was a really great experience. It was an interesting experience for me c- because since I grew up in Houston, I had certain expectations of what the demographics of the district would be, and the demographics, you know, had continued to change. They were very-- They had changed rapidly, and so it was just an interesting time and space to, uh, be there.
And our students were zoned into what was considered at the time one of the three most underperforming, um, high schools in the city. But what was interesting was even then, because I had done some work, you know, around the country, my students who were considered underperforming in H- in Texas, in Houston, were actually, like, higher performing than the [00:11:00] students who, you know...
It's just interesting. Like, there's different states have such different education levels that, uh, they were kind of relative to, like, what I were seeing in Tennessee. They were actually, they're-- From a kind of national test, they were, uh, higher performing. But, um, what I loved about teaching and what was, is, you know, I shared a little bit about my background and experience, is like none of that mattered.
Like, none of that... Kids don't care.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: No, they don't. 'Cause your zipper's still down.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Your zipper's down. Yes. You went where? Who cares? Like, you did what? Who cares? Like, but there was something about that. I just love the authenticity of that, which is just you can't, you can't fake it with kids. Like, they don't care. They, like, they, they care, but they don't care about, like, all the things that you want people to care about when you're an older adult and all these other things matter.
What matters to them is like, "Do you see me? Do you care about me? Are you teaching me? Are you gonna hold me to a standard?" And that's... It's humbling. I mean,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, it
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: it's super humbling. Teaching was the first time I would, like, drive, you know, I would drive home. I would get [00:12:00] home before I realized like, "Oh, I didn't turn on my radio."
I would just be so
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: in my thoughts.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: you're just, like, zoning out. So, um, so yeah. And I, I, I, uh... So I looped with my kids. So I did, I, I enjoyed them as seventh... I actually enjoyed them as seventh graders even more than eighth graders, and I real- you know. Yeah, because I realized eighth graders are a little close to high school, and high schoolers are getting a little cool.
And, 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Sure 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: graders did have, they had that sixth grader energy with that h- that, that adult mean. You're right. Like... 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: yes 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: But, there's something about it that I really did, I really did love. Um, and so yeah. So, so, so that was that. Um, loved the teachers I taught with. Uh, I was... Yeah, I just, I just had a really good, good experience.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Did you, while you were teaching, have the opportunity to mentor others or be mentored? Especially, uh, I mean, I don't know about the resources of the district or things like that, but was that something that came with your work as a [00:13:00] first-year
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah, it was interesting. As a first-year teacher, there's some other teach- actually I had assigned mentor teachers and they were nice. The two of us who were, the ones who were assigned were nice, um, but it was really more of the second and third-year teachers who more would come and like check on me and just kind of tell me the lay of the land.
And then we had t- luckily all our, our students were kind of in a part of the building and so yeah, it's interesting. Some tried to mentor...
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: you're laughing and we
wanna hear what you're laughing
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I'm like
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: l- we love a good story
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: well I'm just thinking, I was like 'cause I would be tr- everybody was nice and friendly. But I'm thinking of one of my, my teammates who was awesome but I had to eventually like lock my door and close my shades when I would get there early in the morning 'cause I would get there early in the morning to try to like prepare my lessons or just to get in front of things and he would wanna come and talk to me about his dating stories and I'm like, "Dude I don't have time.
I'm just like trying to make it," you know? Like and he had been teaching for a long time so he had like his system which was kind of, you know, he had the [00:14:00] textbook and his system but I was, you know. So it was just funny 'cause and to your point about mentors, so it's like in some ways yeah, it's like super helpful.
In other ways like, "Uh, I need to get my time back so I can just
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: and plan." Y-
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: together. Sure
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: yeah and then the second year I really had some strong mentor teachers around who I felt like also their style was really good 'cause they had like very authentic styles. Sometimes in education you can kinda go back and forth between a style of like people who are like very rigid and like kind of everything's like on the books or then you have other folks who like don't have a plan and it's kind of winging it.
And to be honest my style was probably best somewhere in between and so there were some other teachers who had that in between style where they had a plan but they could also, you know, be flexible. So that was great and it was interesting, uh, yeah also as I, I did have the opportunity to mentor some other teachers and I remember, uh, a teacher down the hall by like, you know, when I was teaching in my second year and she came down and she's like, "Do, do you get tired of saying the same thing every day?
Like isn't it boring? Like I'm doing the same thing every day." And I was like, "Oh you [00:15:00] just wait." Uh, I was and then like it was like two or three days later and she said, "Oh my God one of my students called me a white bitch." And I was like, "Well yeah you've got your excitement." I was like,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: wanted it,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: "You s- I told you it ain't gonna be the same every day."
It's like they're just comfortable, they're just getting comfortable day one, day two. They're gonna...
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: period. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, I taught math too, and what I-- people ask me about that, like, "Don't you get tired of saying the same thing over and over again?" And I don't think I did. I, I don't know. I think by the third period, fourth period, I got really good at that subject, so they
got the best of me by the time the end of the day came.
Um, but yeah,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: you, you said you taught math because-- or they hired you to teach math because of your background before you started teaching. Did you feel like that was super helpful, or did it-- uh, n- uh, not with the
students necessarily, but the skill of teaching, did that help any?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Oh, that's, I think what made me, to the extent that I was a good teacher, and the test scores would say I was a good teacher, I think what made me best at it was it was not my [00:16:00] natural zone. Like, I didn't consider myself, like, great at math. I, uh, it wasn't my first love, but therefore I just didn't take it for granted that kids were gonna understand it.
So I think that helped me, um, because it wasn't necess- it didn't always come naturally to me, so then I had to think about, like, well, why, how is this gonna be relevant to them? Why do they care? And how can I make this have some real-life applications? Now, there were some subjects that it made me n- I was, I felt like probably not, like probability.
There's a whole probability unit where I was like, "I feel like I'm probably gonna confuse any kids who got it. Any kids who don't got it, I'm probably not gonna help them."
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: yeah. Like you're your own kids.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: That guy was kinda like, "Do you get this? Okay, great. You teach them." Like, yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Everybody
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: But
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: other
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: everybody help each other, but, but for the most part, yeah, I feel like it was helpful to not just kinda take it for granted that, that they were gonna get excited by it.
It was hard, though, to see, you know, and then you probably saw this too with students with math, where you would have students who say, "Well, my mom says we're not good at math." And it's like, y'all got a whole generational curse on math? No. Like, that's... Y- yeah. So I think unlike other [00:17:00] subjects, math, I think, is one where people will be like, have whole blocks, uh, and family members saying, "We're not good at this."
And so giving people, getting kids confident, like, "No, that's not a thing." I mean, I know the feeling of it is a thing, but the reality of it is you can learn. It's just like sometimes we're used to things coming easy, and math doesn't always come easy. Some- that's the work. So
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Or
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: I think
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yes.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: of it too, is that there's an expectation that we're supposed to know everything very quickly. And I think I spent most of my time in my classroom, um, undoing that belief that we're, our family's not good at math or I'm not good at math. And I found that when my daughter went back, went to school, my husband was saying that to her, even as a little, like a
first grader. And I was like, "Wait, wait, we can't do that. You know, we
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: with that mindset." Um, so that was a thing that we definitely had to unlearn in school. And when we had back to school nights, we would talk about, "Parents, please try not to say this to your kids because it really undoes or un- is undoing everything that we're teaching your student in
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah, 'cause it makes them give up [00:18:00] before they even start. Like, I remember, I remember I had looked at my students' test scores before I, from the year before, and there was a student who I was so confused because, like, her, what her test score was saying and how much she was getting it were so confusing to me.
And I think she probably got, like, so tired of me, like, kinda like being like, you know, trying to help her. She was like, "Miss, I cheated on that test last year. I don't know this stuff." 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Oh, 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: think a part of it is like when you just kinda like give up, you think like, "I'm not gonna learn this. I can't learn this," so you just kinda create a whole different...
When I was telling her, I was like, "Look, this is middle school math. You gotta, y- y- you got a long way to go. You're not gonna be able to cheat your way through the rest,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Uh-uh.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: so we're gonna have to learn this at some point." So
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: it's
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: yeah. Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: with your kids for, for eighth grade. How long were you in teaching eighth grade? Well, first, how long did you teach seventh, and then how long did you
teach eighth? 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: So I taught, for two years total, and that gets to when I l- I left after two, after two years.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: sure
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: part of why was... So I got married. So I [00:19:00] was teaching in Houston, got married, was moving to Nashville where my husband was, he had started a KIPP school, so he was leaving. And so I wanted to teach in Nashville.
It was gonna take some certification changes. At the time in Nashville, which was about 18 years ago, the teacher salary was about $30,000 a year, and I still had business school loans. So my husband's the more practical of the two of us, so he was like, "Look, one of us should work with adults, one of us can work with kids."
Clearly he had the kind of higher responsibility.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: teaching at the time. I wasn't ready to leave, but I also know that, um, where Nashville was at the time with education, it was probably the right decision, 'cause like I said, teachers were not being very well paid. There wasn't, like Nashville was not having any conversations about making schools better at the time.
They've, Nashville's come a long way since then. Um, so I, I just, there just wasn't the structure. Like there wasn't... Like in Houston at the time, people were like very, um, focused on trying to make schools as good as possible, very focused on how do you compensate and support teachers, and that just wasn't the case at the time.
[00:20:00] So, um, so yes, that was, that was when I left, uh, Houston, I left teaching, and then did teacher support and teacher preparation and all of that stuff.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, I wanna talk about the teacher support and the preparation, but I also, I think it's very interesting because we have this conversation about retention of Black educators in education. If they go from state to country, just stay somehow. But to have a, a conversation with your husband is an educator and have that tension of, I understand how important it is for retention of educators full stop, period, and we ain't making no money.
This is not
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Right
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: And like, what... Like that, that's such an interesting... I'm imagining it's such an interesting conversation, and it makes sense. Of course, you have to get paid, you have to eat, you have to do the things, and bills have to be paid, student loans have to be paid. $30,000 is really terrible. And like how, uh, uh, I think it's, this kind of speaks to the [00:21:00] complexity of our retention conversations in education, right?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Mm-hmm
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: about the money, but then it's also, it's, lot of other factors that I don't know if we're taking into consideration when
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: And when I say two teacher households, it's like, I really, like, I mean, I, I find it sho- like, I find it, like, really j- like how, like just how schedules work. Like, how do you get, 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: like a, a, in the here in Nashville, and they've changed the schedule to make it better, but high school would start I think at, like, 7:00 in the morning and, you know.
So it's like, you know, and so if you have one who's teaching high school and middle school is ending at 4:00 PM, like why do people, like, wake up, see their kids, get them to daycare or wherever they need to get them? And so we d- this started before we had kids, and we ended up having kids, like, pretty shortly thereafter, and it would've been...
I mean, I wouldn't have probably made enough to pay for daycare. We would, I mean, we already even just with me working, we still had to have conversations about like, okay, like, do, do you continue to work or... And so to your point on those retention conversations, how do you have, [00:22:00] um, a school s- a school set up where it's designed for assuming two working parents and assuming that the mom is probably gonna take on a, a higher level of the childh- ch- not only the childcare responsibilities, but the logistics and the operations.
And so, um, so yeah, so that... And then, you know, we had kind of seen the writing on the wall a little bit with back before, before I was teaching, I was like s- I was, you know, a good spouse and I would listen to all of the stories and... 'Cause as a teacher, again, you need the outlet. Like, you have, there's so much to process.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: yes, 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: have so much to process coming out of the day, and so we just didn't wanna hear each other's stories. It's not that we didn't, but you know, we both had stories we needed to tell. Like, you know. And so the stories that I was always so eager to hear before I taught, like when I was teaching, I was like, "I don't really have the space to listen to this story."
I can...
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yes.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I've got my own st- yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: So you were married before you became an educator
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: We were long distance, so I wasn't, I was, we were long distance dating and then we got married the summer after my second year of teaching. So we had worked toge- so I worked, [00:23:00] um, my job was helping school years get their school started. So I, we met through KIPP, so I had met him through that. Uh, and so yeah, so no, so I was a teacher.
I wasn't... I mean, he was watch- I mean, he came and watched my classroom one day and he was just like, "Oh my gosh."
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: 'cause he was like, "Do you have no half of what was happening in your classroom?" I'm like, "Probably not." Like, you know, 'cause
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: I'm,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: you're just...
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: I'm dying here. Help me
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: As a first year teacher, you know, there's so much happening and it's like you, you go to the end, you, you get to the end of the day, 'cause I had seven class periods, so it was, you know, 50 minutes.
It was just fast back to back, back to back. And you go through and you like collect the notes on the ground and like you kind of as a, or you're like go- going back and like piecing back the day, "Oh, this is what was happening."
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, the
notes on the floor tell you with all the b- little broken pencils and chewed up erasers.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yes. Yes. You're like, "Okay, here's what was happening this day." So anyway, so yes, it, it, it was an interesting, it was, it was, it was an interesting journey. It was, you know, it wasn't what my goal was or aspiration when I started teaching. I think in my mind I wanted to do at least five years and probably, I mean, like [00:24:00] to my dad's vision, I don't think I wanted to be a superintendent, but I did wanna have increasing leadership, um, within the system.
But I mean, I also understand why like as two, two married people trying to
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Both
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: do all the things.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: you just said, yeah. And I think this, this second layer that you talked about was really important, which is, yes, the f- the pay is a thing, but then you also said something that I think a lot of people who are both in education in some capacity can relate to, which is you got all these things happening at work.
You have-- Of course, you wanna unload and talk to your spouse about it, and you all are both just swapping stories about your classrooms or your o- the admin or whatever day after day after day. And so how many folks, it's like, "I don't wanna hear about your... I want you to tell me..." You know, it's,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: and then how much time do we end up spending just talking about teaching? How much time do we up, end up spending just talking about work because the other person knows the language of your job?
Like there, you [00:25:00] know, if you're in, in banking, there's a whole different language so the person's like, "I don't know what that is."
But in education, IEP 504, you know, RTIs, EE-
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: MTSS, those, that language, when somebody in your household knows it, you can just talk.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: so I'm j- now I'm nerding out thinking about like the impact that has on like, like relationships and marriages, right?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: making any assumption about your marriage or your
relationships, but I'm just thinking about how that could be very challenging when both people end up staying in education long term.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah. Yeah, it's both rewarding, I would say. Sorry, I'm coughing.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: You're fine
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: r- yeah, it's both rewarding and yeah, it's, it's a, it's a challenge. I think as we got older, we probably stopped talking about it as much
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: 'cause I think, one, we got more mature in the work, but yeah, you just also get like kinda, I, I just wanna turn it off and I'm good.
Yeah, we don't need to talk about it.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: it was, yeah, yeah, it was, it was good. But you, it is helpful to understand and [00:26:00] have the context. It's just, I think, I think teaching is something that is hard to understand until you've done it.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: 100%
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: And one thing I will say, having gone from other professions into teaching, um, is it was the first time when I would go to the club or somewhere, and again, I was young at the time.
Um, I celebrated, my birthday was two days ago, I celebrated 50, so I'm...
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah. Happy
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Happy birthday. Thank you. But, uh, but back then, um, a lot of, when people would ask me what I did, it was the first time where I'm like, "Oh, people know what I, they know what I do." Like I s- I can say I'm a teacher and people understand it,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Mm-hmm
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I was like, "Oh, I do consulting or I do this," and then, you know, you always have to explain whatever that means.
Now that I
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: pitch. Yes
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: the bitch, I loved being able to just say I'm a teacher and like that, that's concrete and people know what that means.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, that makes sense. And you, once you left teaching eighth grade, you moved, you s- you just got finished saying you went on to support educators, so obviously you didn't completely leave. Um, tell us about the experience after that, that third
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah. Yeah, so then I [00:27:00] went, so when I moved to Nashville, um, I joined Teach For America as leading a team that was recruiting people like me, like non-traditional, uh, educators. So we were looking for people who had work experience, who were looking to teach, and then trying to grow the number of people who knew about Teach For America as an option and path for that.
So I did that, and then that second year, uh, stayed on the recruitment team. That's under the recruitment team. Uh, got the HBCU portfolio, so we had a, you know, a portfolio that was really... As a Howard alum, um, that was something that I was very passionate about, so. And then when Nashville became a region of Teach For America, then I led our Teach For America region.
And so that was when we got really into supporting educators and first-year teachers and getting them acclimated and ready to hopefully be successful, so.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah. Can I ask you a question about the recruitment side?
[00:28:00] 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: always curious. I don't often meet people who are on cur- recruitment in, in any capacity in education. And so thinking about the HBCU, can you talk to us more about what that looks like? 'Cause in my mind I have an idea, but I'd love to know, like, what that job entailed
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Well, it's interesting. So the, the Teach For America model overall was, um, to really try to identify who are the leaders on campus, who are the folks who are, like, making things happen on campus. And then at the time it was really, you would just, like, kind of try to email those folks, get them to meet with you, and convince them to, to think about teaching if they were thinking about doing law school or something else, to say, "Hey, have you considered teaching?"
What was interesting about the HBCU, uh, recruitment is that formula didn't work at HBCUs. Um, and partly it's just the culture's very different. And so one of the things, and that's one of the reasons why we felt like it was really important to have it under an umbrella of people who understood, because, you know, the HBCU culture wasn't like, "I'm gonna [00:29:00] respond to your email and set up an appointment," da da da da da.
It was like, "Come on campus. You're gonna meet someone. That person's gonna connect you to this person, and then y'all are gonna get them to have a conversation, and y'all are gonna sit down." So it's really about you have to, like, show up in person and, like, have the conversations with people and get to know them and just become a fa- familiar face and have multiple conversations and bring in maybe an adult in a way that probably you wouldn't have to do at another...
You know. So it was really about understanding, uh, just the culture of the institutions and understanding that whereas in a lot of schools and a l- a lot of non-HBCUs, a profess- professors are respected, but it's not in the same way that in an HBCU there might be a professor who, like, a student will do what they tell them to do.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: or a student will do what an alumni tells them to do if that institution who th- who they know has come around and, like, shaped them. I mean, that's part of why, how I ended up in consulting was an alum came into one of my classes, a, a Howard alum, and said, "Hey, who's got this GPA? Y'all should go and apply for these internships."
And we're like, "Okay." So it was really understanding that type of culture that, you know, at HBCUs [00:30:00] there is a probably a different respect for elders than there might be in other places. And, um, so anyway. But then also to the point about, uh, so, you know, what we were talking about earlier in the conversation with your parents' expectations.
How do you get parents okay with the fact that they sent you here to be majoring in business or to go to medical school or to go to law school, and now you're talking about, "I'm gonna be a teacher"? And, you know, I think parents always are, have pride and respect for teachers, but that's also one of the few things that they were able to do in their generation.
So they were hoping for their kids to may- be able to maybe go do something different. So helping them understand, well, this is maybe a different way that, you know, than, than, than you may have imagined, but they can end up still in a lot of different places. So it, yeah. So that, that was a part of it. I mean, it was also, um, trying to f- at the time also widening the net.
I think there was, there was always an understanding of, okay, Howard, Spelman, Morehouse, but just, you know, making sure that there was a sense of, like, all of the HBCUs, and maybe not all of them 'cause for just from a strategy perspective you can't be everywhere, but there's [00:31:00] still a wider tent that we could cast and lots of great students in lots of different places.
So yeah. So that, that was a part of it
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: That's
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: well.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: That, uh, thank you for answering that question. And everything on, on this side of it, you're explaining it, that makes total sense the way the systems work. Did you discover that... Did you know that going in or is it like, "Oh, wait a minute. I know what I'm looking at. Let me ch- like, you know, retool the strategy"?
How did that
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: It was my hypothesis going in. So I had been... It was, this HBCUs had been an- another team when I was there, and so I was just listening to what people were saying about it and why, like, what was working or what wasn't working. And I just had it in my head, like, "I can change this if I get this under my..." But so I had to do some lobbying and some work to, like, get the opportunity to have that kind of as part of my portfolio.
And then, uh, then recruited some of the other recruiters who had also gone to HBCUs who had been recruiting at, like, other large... And so also getting them under. And so then between the [00:32:00] three, between, between us, we were able to, like, talk through it. But I think we are, we had some hypotheses. We knew it had to be different.
We knew that the formula for how it worked in other places was not gonna work. And, uh, but the, it took some exploration and some, you know, just kind of cycling through and trying some things. But we had the hypo- we had some hypotheses for sure.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah. This, this conversation too of I sent you to be, to go to law school. I sent you to go to business school. I, I could have been a teacher. I could have been a...
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Right
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: and so then, oh, I s- I have so many questions about this, I, I 'cause I just, I'm nerding out 'cause I'm just thinking about the politics, the ways that, like, Black folks show up at HBCUs, PWIs, all that. Um, yeah, I'm,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: What's...
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Go ahead, go ahead
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I was also interested that I was s- surprised by those. A lot of districts, they didn't have recruitment teams, like true teams of going out to recruit teachers. So I think that's probably still [00:33:00] the case in a lot of districts, that it's kind of passive. Like, you find out about us and you apply. But I think that, that, that, that's still an opportunity, I think, for a lot of districts to really have more intentional recruitment
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, we had this when I was coming into teaching in 2006. I remember hearing about the HR department of the school district I'm in. I'm in, mind you I'm in Denver, going to HBCUs and trying to recruit Black folks to come out to Denver.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah, that'd be hard.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Listen, I, I haven't seen one yet who stay, who stayed because this is, I mean, this is a switch and I can see they probably spent so much money flying people from HR out to different places of the job fairs, it's just a hard place to be in you're used to an Atlanta.
A D- I'm from
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah. Now with Dion there, maybe y'all could get some people
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Maybe if they're out there, maybe out there. Maybe if they're all in Boulder. But
yeah, I just imagine that's really challenging. So
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: did, did TFA or did your department [00:34:00] have to do more supporting of folks who did go to different states who were coming from HBCUs?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Well, and a lot... Well, it's interesting. Um, yes, and also, you know, people, a lot of folks wanted to be in DC or Houston or New York or, uh, Atlanta for sure. Um, so yeah. And I think for some of the HBCUs that were newer to h- uh, newer to TFA, like, 'cause we did recruit some people who hadn't, uh, didn't have, like, as much of a network.
Uh, I think getting them to be honest about what they needed was also hard 'cause some of them would've tried something like a Denver 'cause they wanted to kinda do the right thing and then not be happy about it and leave. And so it's almost like, "Hey, it's okay. You can say no, I'm not doing this." Like, you don't have to try to please anybody 'cause it's better for you to say honestly that you're not gonna be able to do it if you're not gonna be able to do it.
But I think pe- so I think that was something we learned when, when folks didn't have as many kind of past people who had gone to the places they were going. They maybe were trying to, uh, you know, be professional or do the right thing [00:35:00] and yeah. Uh, but to the point, it is, it is harder, uh, to go to new places.
Some people like th- some people do just wanna try something new, and it was funny, like after the... Like, it took me probably, like, 10 years to process. I was an RA my senior year, and then I realized, like, oh, the other RA my senior year, she had gone to Phoenix. She had done Teach For America and gone to Phoenix and taught, so
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Hmm. Yeah, on the back end that you realize that.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: you for, thank you for allowing me to nerd out on that particular
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: No, I'm very passionate about recruitment also. You know, and it's connected to retention though, 'cause it's like... And that was, I mean, that's part of what led me to start Possible, is I knew how hard it is to get people to choose to teach. And then seeing through s- uh, you know, a dinner table conversation with my husband, some of the stress that parents unintentionally bring when they're, like, pressuring teachers.
And I'm like, "Oh man," like, we should be on the same page 'cause we all want good teachers in the classroom. But, uh, sometimes parents are unintentionally creating stress. Not all. It's only, it's usually, like, a small subset, but the, the stress that they can create can be [00:36:00] sufficient to, like, 
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Sure 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: you know, make somebody wanna leave, so.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: What you're, what you were doing, and we'll talk about possib- for sure, was still really good. And it-- We need to continue to be thinking about both the retention and recruitment conversation. Seeing that you were in multiple states, seeing your work in TFA, seeing your work in the classroom, and we understand why you left, do you believe that s- um, schools, districts, and unions can, like, retain Black educators? Is that something that you think is possible? And if so, what strategies would you think about that's u- or that unions, schools, and districts should use to retain Black educators?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I think absolutely. I mean, I think one, I mean, I think one of the big retention tools is listening.
Um, and I think it's listening for twofold. One is listening for just like what is your direct experience so that we can have information about it and try to make changes as quickly as possible. But the other part of the listening is, [00:37:00] um And I think this is a pretty shared sense that particularly Black women have typically have a really good sense of what might be coming around the corner.
There, and there's a saying, you know, like, the sign of a genius is the ability to hold two competing ideas in your head at once, and I think Black women are particularly good at that. And so I think sometimes they're trying to share what they're seeing or what might be about to happen, and it's not always heard.
And so I do think just, like, listening to what people are seeing in the broader context, like here's what we need to do in this organization, here's what we need to do in this school. So listening to that as well as just listening to, and what's your personal individual experience. So I think that is one big part.
I think the second part is community and not just, uh, I mean, certainly community like within other teachers, but I just think it's like some of the things that I think we, well, don't, we often don't wanna like overburden people with like after school and this and that, but there's also so much joy in like going to the s- sports games and like some [00:38:00] of the extracurricular activities.
And so fi- finding a way to create community and really bringing people into that sense of community, I, I think is something that will help retain Black educators 'cause then it's fun. Like, you know, that's so, so much of the fun is when you see the success, when you see the football game, when you see the, you know, the kids being happy in their thing.
And so I think that's the second is k- is community. And then the third is really just pathways. Um, you know, we were talking about recruitment. There are a lot of people who get into education or get interested in education when they're substitute teaching or when they might be a paraprofessional, and having a pathway for them to visualize themselves from that to the su- you know, superintendent as my dad, you know, would've said.
But just having a path for, for teachers where they can see themselves and, and, you know, in multiple ways. 'Cause really, I mean, schools are organizations and so every, every, every job that you see in an organization exists in, in a kind of educational pathway in some way. And that won't keep everyone in the classroom necessarily, [00:39:00] unl- but it does at least keep them in the system, and so I think there are opportunities for that if, if we have real clear pathways.
And in the pathways, I mean, I do know, and this is again with a recruitment lens, one of the things that does have a disproportionate impact on Black educators is certification and some of the stressors that come with that. Um, and so I think I, I, I've, you know, being o- being okay, be- getting comfortable supporting teachers through that 'cause that's a stressful...
It's the stress of like passing the test is the stress, but then the stress of like psychologically feeling badly about yourself if you're
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: to pass the test. So, you know, I just think creating some safety and some, uh, some structure to support folks when they're going through some of that stuff I think is really important
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much. So, um, I guess my, my next question is, all through your K-12, in your classroom as a prof- uh, in your professor, having professors, not being a professor, but having [00:40:00] professors, there a Black educator or are there Black educators that you would like to shout out?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I have three, if I may indulge. Uh, one's from Philly. So when I was five, I had a piano teacher. His name was Mr. Leroy, and he was... I don't remember much about him, but he was just so elegant. Like, I just remember him being very elegant. He wore tr- slacks and white button-up, and when my family was moving to Houston, he had us over for dinner, and it was so funny 'cause at the time we didn't eat, we didn't eat red, we didn't eat meat at the time, but we, but he had made chicken.
So my parents were like, "Well, this seems like a good time to eat chicken." So,
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yes
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: so we started eating chicken, uh, well, as we were moving to Houston. And they were like, "Nobody's gonna be... Y'all aren't gonna get away with not eating meat in Houston, so may as well start now."
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Leroy.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Right, thank you, Mr. Leroy. So Mr. Leroy, and then my second grade teacher in Houston was Ms.
Campbell, and she was just, it just felt like home. Her classroom somehow just felt like home. Um, and she always just, I just... The school I was in was predominantly white, and [00:41:00] she was a Black teacher, and she probably had maybe two Black students in the class, but I just felt so at home with her. Um, and she would c- she would, she had a little clock radio and she would play, it was Love 94 was a radio station, and she'd just have, always have that playing while we did our, uh, classwork.
But she was just super authentic. So Ms. Campbell's the second one who I love, and then the third one is Coach Parker. So, um, she's in Nashville and she taught both my kids and, and you know, one time she had to call and tell me about some things my son was doing that he shouldn't be, but she had the relationship already where it was just coming from such a place of love that I was not concerned.
And then, uh, she's just been a real role model for my daughter, and my daughter wants to play, uh, sports in college. And she said, "You know, if I get that opportunity, the first person I'm gonna tell is Coach Parker." Um, so w- gotten... I've known her since she was a first-year teacher right out of college, and now she's been teaching for 10 years.
Uh, so she's the last one I wanna shout out.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, I love that. Um, next question is, you mentioned POSIP, you're not in-- This is an exit interview, so obviously you're moved [00:42:00] on. You're still in supporting educator, education educators in general, but you've expanded. So tell us all about POSIP. We wanna know
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah. So Possip's... I started Possip... Well, I had the idea for Possip in late 2016. I was having a dinner table conversation with my husband. He had a parent who was angry and was calling and yelling at the teacher, the principal, him. And so I was empathizing with him, I was empathizing with the teacher, and I was also empathizing with the parent, and it led me to say, "Hey, what if we made it easy for the parent to share, but then also made it digestible for you all to get this information?"
And then also we didn't just, like, wait for parents to share so that it wasn't always negative. Like, 'cause I think parents have a lot of positive stories, and we can't always prevent either someone having negative feedback or someone just being kind of off the chain and doing too much.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: we can balance it out with the positive stories and h- having, giving other people a voice.
So it started back in 2016, focused on helping schools hear from parents. Uh, and then over time our school partners said, "Hey, we love [00:43:00] this. Can we use it to hear from our staff? Can we use it to hear from our students?"
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Mm-hmm.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: So over time we've come and we're basically a listening platform. And so we are a listening platform that has pulse checks.
So pulse checks are quick text message pulse checks that go out. They go out in over 100 languages. Unlike traditional surveys that are very top-down, these are designed to just be very bottoms up. So, "Are you happy with the school?" If they say yes, "What praise, questions, or ideas do you have? If you say mostly or no, what would make your experience better?"
And staff, the staff question is similar. You know, "Are you happy with your experience?" And they, so they can share their qualitative feedback, and then that's all digested in our platform on the back end, and so you can trend it. And so you say, okay, parents, um, who have feedback, you know, a lot of their feedback might be about bullying or a staff member.
What is their feedback about? It's about workload. Uh, you know, we have data that shows, especially for first-year teachers, it's being able to, like, really it's their understanding their curriculum is a huge stressor for first-year teachers. So, so yes, that's we, we... Our [00:44:00] goal is to really help, uh, organizations, but mostly we work with schools and districts, think about, okay, what are we trying to achieve?
And therefore, what do we want people to... W- what do we need staff, you know, parents to do for us to achieve that? And therefore, what do we need to learn and understand? What do we need to do to listen, to understand both to have the context that we need to make the decisions, but then also along the way as we're trying to do things, what do we need to, to listen and learn from?
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, and you, it's pretty successful. It sounds like you're in a ton of schools.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: us about that
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: So we're in 35, about 35 to 40 states, almost every state. Uh, well over 1,000 schools have heard from over 1 million people through the platform. Um, you know, we've had partners with us since we started in 2017, and so it's just become a rhythm and a routine that parents know that they have that either they can just share at any time.
So some of it is like you don't always have to share. That's not the goal, but it's that you also do have a platform for when you wanna share. And it's also to get away from that kind of like, uh, once a year long survey that comes out in March because that survey comes out in [00:45:00] March, by the time you get the results back, you have a whole new crop of kids, a whole new, whole new staff, and you're just like, uh, you...
And so it just becomes this thing that you just present at PD in the summer and then never see again. So it's really because the pulse checks are routine, you know, they happen a lot of, uh, you know, monthly, sometimes every other week. It just is a, is a listening system. And so it doesn't have to be high stakes, you know, people can just really easily listen.
So, uh, yeah, we're with the com- we're, we're all, in all school types, so we're at, uh, traditional school districts, suburban, urban, uh, charter schools, independent schools, uh, small rural schools. Um, I would say the main thread tends to be leaders who just really, one, care, they really care about their community, and two, have a sense of agency about, "Oh, I can do something with information when I get it."
'Cause I think a lot of leaders or people, uh, who are scared to get information, I think a lot of that fear is, "I don't know what to do with it." But when you've got a leader who's like, "I know I have agency, I can do things when I h- when I learn about it," that's who typically we, we [00:46:00] work with.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, I love this. And, you know, I think you are the first person that we've had on the show who has used their education background as, and used it in tech that I not, that I know of directly. In this way, we do have, uh, tech founder or tech presidents, but not from the ground up. And so if you're talking to, um, an educator, what high school, middle school, early childhood educator who's like, "I have an idea.
I want to do something with an app," or, "I wanted to go and move into the direction that you're moving in," what is something that they could do to get started? How
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Ooh, I love that question
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, because it's like, "I have an idea. I wrote this down years ago," but now what? So how, what would you give them as for
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah. And I think this is great 'cause I think this is one of the things, and teachers are so well-equipped to do this. So there's this idea in, uh, tech startups, it's called the lean st- like lean startup, which is like how do you build out the MVP? And the MVP is the minimally viable product. So the idea there is what is the least expensive way you [00:47:00] can test out the viability of your idea?
And so for example with me, when I started Possip, I had a full-time job. And so my idea was I think schools can get feedback from parents easily. So I went to my kids' school and I said, "Hey, I have this idea. Are you down to try it?" They said yes. So I got a SurveyMonkey link and a texting platform, and I would send out on Friday, I would send out the text, the text with message with the link.
They would fill out the SurveyMonkey. I would make the reports myself manually over the weekend, and then on Monday I gave the, the principal the report. And then about three months in I said, "Hey, can we meet?" And so I said, "Hey, how is this? Is this good? What are you learning?" And so, but that was the foundation through which I actually then spent the money to build out the technology.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Mm-hmm.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I try to encourage entrepreneurs, people who have ideas, like what is the most basic way you can test what your theory is on this idea with spending as little money as possible? Um, 'cause a lot of people have ideas and they go out and they invest, they hire a contractor, and they build out technology, and that's all really expensive.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: their home,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: [00:48:00] yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: One of the hardest things to do is to figure out, to get people to use whatever you build. So if you can figure out if the problem you're solving is something that people will use before you spend a lot of money, um, that'll be really good. And, and teaching is such a great place 'cause there's so many problems you see, and if you can start to come up with solutions and test them out in your classroom, that's really a foundation to then build from there.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: And there are a lot of people out there who are building stuff who have not been in classrooms and schools, and so that's unfortunate because... Then, and this is what I w- my decision was probably not good from a business perspective, but part of what I, I, having taught, I saw like how I would open up closets and there would be all these manipulatives in there from like years back and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, how many dollars are sitting in this closet unused?"
So I didn't wanna build something that wasn't used and just, you know, just 'cause I could sell it. I didn't wanna just be able to sell something that wasn't useful. Um, but there are a lot of companies out there who sell, who are good [00:49:00] at selling. The product may not be that useful, but they're really, they've got a lot of venture funding and they...
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah.
It's-- 
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: it's, yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: You're making an excellent point about, like, starting off lean, like what do you have? Because you're right, educators are really good at making
miracles happen, and I'm so... you brought an idea to mind. I'm gonna tell you about it, uh, later, but when we, you know, are done recording 'cause, um,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: this idea to me.
But you're right, there's, there's Kahoot!, there's SurveyMonkey, there's all these different apps that are already used, and so, like, what does it mean to just start where you are or what you have with the, the apps that you're already using or with the-- They have 90-day trial or whatever before you build something out. Um,
especially if you're already, if you're working, then this is... have to necessarily feed you at that very moment,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: That's, and I think that's something so huge too that I, I, I feel like, and especially with educators, if you can like truly take your summer or those times off to really like [00:50:00] plan, then use that as an advantage. 'Cause one of the other things, you know, and I, I quit my day job about a year and a half in. I probably, if I had to do it again, I probably would've potentially kept my day job even longer while building, 'cause it gives you some financial security.
It's harder, but I would use the, I used the money that I, you know, from my day job to then like hire people to do certain things like that weren't in my skillset or that I wasn't gonna be particularly, you know, skilled at. So when you, when you make it all on you, then you have to be good at everything if you're not making money, 'cause you have to make that thing make money.
Uh, so I, I s- I think, I think having a, a day job is a good help for as long as you can kind of sustain them both
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that with the community. Um, okay, so my next question is, and our final question is, obviously, s- you know, teaching can be very stressful. You've done a lot of different things, had-- The money's done what it does in teaching, right? Um, but we didn't necessarily talk about wellness or, like, how [00:51:00] you to-sustained yourself and took care of yourself while you were in the classroom, while you were working for TFA, even before that. But on this side of it, you've talked about, "I've had reflections about this. I thought about this thing." you had a chance to reflect on, um, what your wellness looked like as an educator, and then how that is different now?
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Mm-hmm. As an educator, the thing I loved about teaching is you have a routine. Like, that was my m- my, the most routinized time of my life.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, you're speaking as a Virgo. I just wanna say that. A Virgo. That's, yes, that's perfect
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah. So I would get up at like, hmm, maybe 5:00 in the morning. I would typically go to the gym before I went to school, get to school by like 6:30, 7:00. And, you know, so I lo- like that was my wellness routine.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: after work, probably a couple times a week I would go work, go walk at a park with a coworker.
On weekends we would do planning in a coffee shop. So I, [00:52:00] I was also single. Well, I was dating, but he was
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, he
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: in other cities.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah,
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah, so, so I felt like that was, um, I think that was helpful. I think the, you know, the other thing with wellness at, as t- teaching that I think ke- stays now is just contentedness. I think learning how to be content is just such a wellness strategy.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Hmm
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: I think part of why that was unique for me was because when I w- when I started teaching, I, I did take a significant pay cut 'cause I was coming from, you know, more of a business type of job. But then learning how to be content and learning how to make it as, make it financially as a teacher is such a superpower that I think we underestimate when you can figure out how to live off of a salary that's not huge.
'Cause then from there you can always kind of build up. It's much easier to learn how to live with more money.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, that's, that's the easy part
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah, that's the easy part. So I think that was the other part was just m- like, you know, giving, having a lot of grace for myself, especially as someone, you know, at the time I was going from, you know, s- being successful in, you know, other types of work to then having, you know, kids telling me my zipper's down, [00:53:00] you know?
So just, just having grace for myself. So, so I think those are things that I still try to keep with me is having the grace for myself, being willing to understand when I'm doing something I haven't done before and that might be why I'm failing or not successful. Um, now m- you know, now b- uh, during COVID I started a daily journaling and meditation practice where I, you know, before really the day starts I, uh, read some devotionals, read a chapter of the Bible, and then I have, I just journal.
And now I've extended that to now not only do I journal but like I'm writing out like a, every day I'm like, "Here's my vision for the year," and I just kind of return to it every day to see what's changing or... Um, but I think just getting that, those thoughts out of my head have been, has been really important
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Sure
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: from a wellness perspective and it keeps me very grounded and just kind of starts a conversation.
And then the Peloton is the, the back end.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: right. That's
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Um, I didn't ask this before, but I think it's important to ask, how can people find you who want to work with you with POSIP? I
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Oh, thank you. [00:54:00] Yeah.
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yes, please let us know
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Possible.com, that's our website. I'm also on LinkedIn, so, uh, Shani Dowelll on LinkedIn. If you just look, look me up on LinkedIn, you can find me there as well. But, uh, those are the two easiest ways. And nbcpossible.com, you can fill out a contact us form and we'll get in touch
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yes, and that should be on our show notes too. So make sure you check those show notes out if, um, you've missed something in here or you can't find it on the internet. Um, Shawnee, it is so glad... I'm so glad you had the time to come in and chat with me.
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Thank you. It's a pleasure
dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_08-27-2026_141625: Yeah, thank you for coming in. Thank you for, especially your, your perspective on this, like, recruitment and what we do after and this tech piece.
I'm sure that lots- I hope lots of people come and reach out to you or at least check out what you're doing and, and get inspired for themselves. Um, in the meantime, folks, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and then we'll see you on the next podcast episode. All right. Peace
shani-dowell--e-her-_1_08-27-2026_151625: Bye. Thanks
[00:55:00]