Ya Might Win Some with Michael Diaz-Rivera

Ya Might Win Some with Michael Diaz-Rivera

Kevin Adams: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. We are here again for another wonderful episode of the Exit interview, episode 10 Asia. How are you?

Intro: I am in

Kevin Adams: disbelief

Dr. Asia Lyons: that we're on episode 10. Actually, it goes fast. It does go fast. No wonder you two have been able to do so many episodes because it just flies by.

Kevin Adams: Yeah. Yeah. And it does go fast.

But, uh, you know, I think tonight tonight's episode is, is going to be, um, I think a really good episode. I think it's gonna be. Enlightening for a lot of reasons. Um, our, our guest is somebody who's dear to me. Uh, you know, somebody who I look up to and admire as an educator [00:01:00] and, and, and, and it's, you know, it's like a double-edged sword because this is a person who I, uh, there's, there goes our, uh, Franz, our other guest, we were talking about the parakeet Asia as our, as our, and

Dr. Asia Lyons: I'm, I'm trying to be on site on mute, because I'm ready for him to start singing.

That's right. So That's

Gerardo: right. I mean, it's a, it's a community effort, right? That's right. Um, so Franz is a part of it, the parakeets part of it, the producer and our producer,

Kevin Adams: Gerardo, makes an appearance.

Gerardo: Yeah, there. Go. And just, I wanna also echo my love for Michael and also to, um, to shout out to Franz who gives shout outs on the podcast.

That's right.

Kevin Adams: That's right. That's right. But, uh, like I said, a double-edged sword with this one, because it's an interview that I, I'm glad that we have, but it also means, you know, that this brother is, is, is leaving the classroom, you know?

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Adams: And, and so I just, I'm thrilled that we have this guest today, but you know.

I hope that really the powers that be, that listen to this [00:02:00] podcast are really hearing what, what is being said in the experiences because like, you, you, uh, to, to quote, uh, Jay-Z, you lost one. You lost one. You know what I mean? And so like, I think that's what we're gonna document today. And so, you know, I am glad we are here.

Um, we are here with the imminent, the great, the wonderful Michael Diaz Rivera, Michael, go ahead and tell the people what's up. Yes. But

Michael Diaz-Rivera: no, I'm excited to be here, excited to be in conversation with some of my favorite people. Y'all inspire me, have inspired me, and still will. So I'm just excited to talk, conversate with the fam and share my story.

And yeah, you're right. It's, it's a bittersweet area that I'm feeling currently trying to. Admit to myself that I'm leaving the classroom. Mm. [00:03:00] I've been able to admit it yet. Mm. Yeah.

Kevin Adams: Well, we appreciate it. We, you know, the feeling is mutual, I think, from all of us. Um, and, and just appreciate you being here and willing to share your story because we know, um, how much this means to you, you know, and, um, we know just how traumatic some of these stories can be.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, for

Michael Diaz-Rivera: sure. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking of racial battle fatigue as I was just getting ready to start, and I was just thinking of which example should I share today? I've, in my years of school, I've, yeah, I've been in some battles. Sometimes I think that I fought battles that didn't need to be fought.

But, um, yeah, there have been a lot of racial battles that I,

Kevin Adams: that, that I love that thought about. Like, because that is the question, you know, you always, I think as black educators we're always asking, [00:04:00] what, what is my battle? You know? And I think some people would always be like, oh, you fighting everything?

And you're like, I'm not really fighting everything. 'cause there's a bunch of stuff where I don't say something, you know, where I feel like I could have said something. Mm-hmm. You know, it it, so that's why I'm excited to have you here and I think our listeners are really gonna get a lot of, of, um, this episode.

Um, so Asia, you wanna start us off with our first question?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, of course. So we always ha have those same kind of five questions and we're onto that storytelling. And so start us off and how did you end up going into education? How did you end up being a teacher?

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah. Um, I actually started teaching, I.

Actually, it was the inspiration of Trayvon Martin being murdered, Michael Brown being murdered. That actually brought me to education. I was in college around that time, and I was originally planning to be a psychology major, art minor, and I wanted to do art therapy. And so as I was [00:05:00] in my studies, these black men were being murdered and there was no answer for it.

And then people started talking about it though. Mm-hmm. And in those conversations they started talking about education of our black kids and what is happening to our black boys. Well, and then I at the same time had read an article about the need for black male educators in education that there, a lot of times we are few and far between.

I don't even know if that's the right, same statement, but it's hard to find black male educators, especially in elementary schools. So, yep. I was luckily enough to, um, get into a program and actually I was talking about battles. I was trained to teach by some of the people that I am in battle with now.

Some of the many people that I consider my opposition were what brought me to teaching. I came to education [00:06:00] through an alternative teaching licensure. Mm-hmm. Because I had already graduated college. There's opportunities for people that, um, that have other career fields. They've got a college degree.

Other ways for them to get into education. I think it has something to do with the teacher shortage. It could also be with union busting. There's a lot, it's a lot of, uh, stuff happening even with alternative teaching licensure. But that's how I got in and I. Quickly realized that these places weren't the place for me because it wasn't set up for me to support the people that I came into education for.

Like I said, I came into education for the black and brown babies, and from the very first months and my first school, I realized that the system wasn't created for that to happen. And even, yeah, just thinking what you were saying, Kevin, about not wanting to be the [00:07:00] angry black man Yep. And trying to choose my battles.

I know y'all know that feeling of Yep. You see stuff happening and you wonder, is it worth me speaking up about this? Mm-hmm.

Intro: Is it

Michael Diaz-Rivera: going to change anything?

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Or am I gonna be looked at as the angry black man? Problem is, I don't know how to shut

Kevin Adams: up. So, but the more, the more I realize, I, I feel like we, if we, if we share our opinions, we always gonna be viewed as the angry black man.

Right,

Intro: right.

Kevin Adams: You know, or the angry black woman. I mean, uh, Asia, you know, the angry black woman is Oh, that, that.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. And I, I appreciate, sorry to cut you off, Kevin. Go ahead. Uh, I appreciate, you know, you saying like, trying to pick those battles and decide what to do and all, and it is, it's really hard. And, and I, you just said I appreciate the reflection.

Like some of those was, it really even, was that just me, like all those circles and then coming, kind of coming back to this place of like, wow, it's a full circle [00:08:00] thing.

Intro: Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right now I'm fighting battles against folks who I thought were in my corner, in the corner of the black and brown children that you are still supporting and, and were trying to support at the time.

Yeah. So like, tell us about, I mean, you kind of got into it already and started getting into it, so you're not in, you're still coming to the grips that you're not in teaching, at least not in the ways that you originally start. In the beginning. What was the straw? What was, how did your time in the classroom end, how did you lead up to, um, going into what you are going to do or what you're doing right now?

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah, so what, my final straw actually probably happened a year ago. I remember this time a year ago thinking, what was I going to, where was I gonna teach the next year? I was still signed onto the contract at the school that I was at, but I knew that the leadership at the school really wasn't [00:09:00] fans, they weren't fans of me.

They were not trying to work together and be restorative in the harm that we've both caused each other. So it was. Last year figuring out what was I going to do? And I realized that no matter what school I went to, it was probably going to be the same issues. There were still going to be educators that are blessed to work with our kids that refuse to do right by our kids.

And I say that in turn in thinking of the race aspect of these folks know about the achievement gap. Mm-hmm. They know what the consequences are for our kids when they're not learning and there has not been any real changes yet to make our kids succeed. So at my school last year. Elementary is where I was at.

And I knew before the year that it was [00:10:00] gonna be a tough one, but I didn't want to go to a new school and start with a new set of group, a new group of students that I would have to rebuild relationships when I already knew my kids that I was with. So I decided to just, you know, I'm not, battles weren't a new thing to me, so I figured just get ready, protect myself, build with those that I can, and we'll see if, if they take me out, I'm gonna go out Swinging was really my thinking.

And really, so I knew that the end for me, in education was on its way, but I wasn't, it's been, I'm still not admitting to myself that the classroom right now isn't the place for me. And I think the, the decision that made it for me was my principal and my school leadership. Choosing to early non-renew me this year, a month before school ended.

It was [00:11:00] a, it was a real political trick, but once that happened, I'm interviewing my principals, not giving me a good reference. I, I'm just burnt out. And, um, so I feel like I'm rambling, but really just the burnout that I've experienced from the last couple years of fighting has led me to this point realizing that this isn't sustainable for somebody li like me.

Kevin Adams: Yeah.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Unless I changed some things. And actually, I was gonna say, when you were talking earlier, Kev, about. Just being the angry black man. You know, James Baldwin has that quote of being black and educated. Actually, no, I'm gonna mess up the quote, but I'm living with a constant rage is what I'm trying.

Dr. Asia Lyons: That's right, that's right. Yeah. All the time. Yeah, all the time. To be black in America and to not be something perpetually angry. It's like you have to be all the time. Something like that

Kevin Adams: all the time. No, [00:12:00] but I, I love that point, Michael. You know, that, that it's like, because I feel like in our experience of, you know, doing these exit interviews and just our experience as black educators, I feel like there's, that, that's always what the issue is.

Yeah. It's like, it's like you go into these rooms and, and, and you feel like you have to do something you like, and I, I don't know about your experience, but like from early on it was like, I have to say something. 'cause I look around the room. And there was less. I was like, there is nobody. Well, you know, early on when I came in my orientation meeting, there was nobody like me.

Yeah. I was like, I'm very different. I'm very, I could sense it, you know, right off the bat. But I wanna go back, Michael for a minute and just talk about, a little bit about your classroom and, and just that you're a black educator, you know, and I think there's this trend of black educators kind of going in it to approach it one way.

So, um, and, and then also the pushback. You know, like you said, that people [00:13:00] not willing to change, but can you tell us a little bit about like what your classroom is like and, and, and what, you know, some of the stuff that you were doing, you know, to really, because I think as a person who knows your pedagogical practices, you know, I, I, that's what I love about you, you know, especially at the elementary level as a black man.

But just tell us about, a little bit about some of the practices that you engaged in your classroom.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah. And that's one of the things that for me, is, it's hard for me to admit that I'm giving that up.

Intro: Yep. Mm-hmm. But

Michael Diaz-Rivera: I feel like, and I could say I feel like it, but my students and my family support my thinking.

Mm-hmm.

Intro: My

Michael Diaz-Rivera: classroom was a place where my kids felt valued. My classroom was where oppressive practices were not allowed from me, from other folks, from students, any of that. Like I said, I came into education when Black Lives Matter movement was just kicking [00:14:00] off. So I started out as an abolitionist educator without even really knowing what that's about.

Mm-hmm. But knowing that these systems weren't working for my kid. So I was in a, I would go and actually I started at a school university prep, which a lot of. My parents at the time when I was at that school, they called the school a military public school for the way that we would treat our kids.

Gerardo: Yes.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: So in the hallway, they've got kids walking on lines, hugs and bubbles, don't do anything outside of what you would expect a robot to do. And then when they come in my classroom, I'm telling my kids rules are made to be broken. That's right. Mm-hmm. My kids that they should question me of all people. Mm-hmm.

Don't let me just tell them anything. And I teach my kids restorative practices. When we are getting into those moments where conflict is happening, I was able to stop my class in that moment, address it as the whole class, [00:15:00] and really get to the issue. Now, I won't say that I was always able to get there because restorative conversations involve a lot of conversation and a lot of time that I wasn't given because of the system, but.

In my classroom, I was able to create a culture that I didn't see many other places. A community where I didn't see many other places. I don't know who I stole it from, but I called my students' family because I learned my love of education from my family. If it wasn't from my mom holding that high bar of me when I wanna be a knucklehead, I would not be where I am today.

Mm-hmm. So that's where, that's why I hold that high bar in my classroom. And I've noticed something, me being a knucklehead growing up is I'm a magnet for knuckleheads Now. Reason they, and actually you, it might not be hard to guess, but you, I've noticed that school admin tends to put the knuckleheads in my room.[00:16:00]

Yeah. Because I'm able to break through to them in ways That's right. That others won't even try. Try.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yes. So then what is the, I mean, what we are hearing sounds fantastic, and of course I'm not an administrator, but to me I'm like, that's awesome. That's great. You know, that's what I want for

Kevin Adams: my children. I need that.

That's the environment I want for my children.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. So then what's the problem? What was the rub between you and the administration that got you into a place in this, where we're talking to you today? What's, what was the problem?

Michael Diaz-Rivera: My refusal to assimilate is probably it. Um, and even at the last school I just left John m Ms.

Elementary, they recruited me because of who I am, because of the values that I have and what I stand in for in community, my past teaching experiences. But once I got there, they thought that they could put me in a box. They thought that I could just be a token.

Intro: Hmm. They

Michael Diaz-Rivera: could call me when it's time to take a photo op.

They could call me when it's [00:17:00] time to discipline kids. But they, for the real issues, I was just supposed to be quiet. So when I see students being put into submission holds,

Kevin Adams: no.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: And I'm calling it out. Not acceptable. It's a problem for school leadership when I see my kids being interrogated by the police without, without their parents.

Their parents. Yep.

Kevin Adams: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: And then I'm talking to the parents without talking to leadership.

Kevin Adams: And this is it. Hold on. Elementary,

Michael Diaz-Rivera: elementary,

Kevin Adams: elementary.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Elementary school. Elementary. Exactly. When I am talking about the fact that our PDs are not productive and they're not making us better teachers, they're just checking boxes and I'm giving solutions on how we could do better, it is just ignored to the point where I'm literally.

I, I either choose to be silent all the time or I speak up because I know that they're gonna look at me as the angry [00:18:00] black man and somebody has to say

Kevin Adams: you like, whatever. That's, that's what I'm gonna be if, if I'm mm-hmm. If I'm gonna be angry black man. I guess that's my character in this show.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I want, I, I do wanna go back to one thing that you said about. Like you realize that like no matter what school you went to, that it would be the same. Like you would run into the same issues and the same problems. And I think just kind of sharing a tad bit of like, like I can totally hear that.

I totally understand that. I had that same experience when I realized like, in the same like I was in CCSD in Cherokee Creek School District, no matter where I went, my reputation as being angry, as being like basically able to get students to do, to stand up for themselves would follow me. And I wouldn't be able to find work or I'd have to be to water myself down for them.

And I couldn't do that. So I totally hear what you're saying about like, no matter where you [00:19:00] go, it's gonna be the same.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the tough part. Um, because like I said, my heart is still in it. I still feel like I'm a good teacher. Mm-hmm. And it's hard for me to step away from that to, to the point where.

Last, last Friday, someone called me because someone at their school had quit and there were interview positions. So yesterday I had an interview for a job. Yep. Whole time preparing for the interview. I knew my heart wasn't in it, and I'm just like, I've got the interview, so let me just try it, but I'm not going to be quiet about what's happened.

And then this morning I got a call from the people that I interviewed with that said that they didn't choose me for the position, which I'm hoping that it was because the other person was less qualified than Was more qualified than me.

Kevin Adams: Yeah.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: But I'm willing to bet it's because of the things that I spoke out on, [00:20:00] because of the fact that I spoke in that interview about the need for true restorative practices and that I haven't seen it in schools.

Those type of things probably make school admin scared. Mm-hmm. I can. I cannot crush myself to make these other people feel powerful.

Kevin Adams: No. And I think, you know, in, in our district, 'cause we work in the same district, you know, we, we, you know, our district has claimed to, you know, as one of its top six priorities to challenge historical oppression.

Right. It's so, like, what you talk about is this, this, these aspects of oppression that have gone on systematically, right. That you're facing. It's like black balling a teacher, basically. Mm-hmm. Right. You know? Mm-hmm. Like you, you have, you have the red a on you, you have been labeled, you know, uh, this, um, but, but I wanna ask you, and you, you could tell me where you want to go.

This is one of the questions that Asia sent you, but me and you, you [00:21:00] know, we, we are acquainted through some union work and, and just your thoughts about the union and, and the role of the union and, and kind of here situation place teachers.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah, educators. I value union. I love the union for what it's supposed to be.

But my experience this year, in the last couple years of teaching the Denver Teachers Association, Denver Classroom Teacher Association, has not supported me in the way that they should have. I, and like I said, I knew the battles that were going to be happening this year because of what I went through with my principal last year.

Yeah. I had the same principal, same leadership this year. So I was just preparing myself. I, before I went into the unit to the year, actually, because we had Vincent this last year, the union was, support was supposed to support me, and oftentimes I felt like they failed [00:22:00] me. But going into this year, made sure to come up with the plan with the union.

We know what I'm stepping into, how can we make sure that I'm supported all time? And it's a really political game. End the day because the union plays politics. The union is only gonna support you if it is something that's going to make them look good

Kevin Adams: benefit,

Michael Diaz-Rivera: in my opinion. Mm-hmm. If it's going to benefit them.

Mm-hmm.

Intro: If

Michael Diaz-Rivera: the union can't call the district out for being racist, without being accountable for their own racism. Yep. It's gonna be an issue. So that's where my relationship with DCTA was tarnished this year because they weren't showing up for me when I needed them most. And I think it was because of the fact that I had called them out in the past.

Literally my first week we were in, we were, didn't even have kids yet. [00:23:00] First week of orientation. This year, my principal. Asked me for a meeting, which I still don't really even know what thing was about.

Intro: Yeah.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: But she just really wanted to be authoritative and say like, Michael, I want you to know what the principal says.

Goes, and I'm set. I'm setting the agenda

Kevin Adams: for this year. I'm in charge.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yes. Are you going to listen when I ask you to do type like things that I was already doing? Yes. But they just wanted to try to create a narrative, and as they continued to create this narrative this year, the union didn't really do what they needed to to support me, which there are many factors to it.

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: I'm at an innovation school.

Intro: Yeah.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Which in a way, I waved away a couple of my rights, which is a big problem that I try to caution teachers away from now. So many of the things that the union could have supported me on, they. Well, maybe they [00:24:00] wanted to support me on, they couldn't because of the whites that I waved away.

But even in sitting in meetings and supporting me in the time of those meetings, the union wasn't there. Literally the last week of me teaching, my principal started to rearrange my meetings and really have some off behavior. I shared the meetings with the union like I always would asked them to be there to support me.

And when it was time, the union was nowhere to be found. So like I believe in the union. I know the union is the power of the people, and that's why I still fight for the union. But the way that the union is currently standing, it's not beneficial for me and other educators like me.

Kevin Adams: Idealism versus reality, right?

Yeah. We have ideals, but, but how it plays out is always interesting.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. You weren't the first person who've talked about unions. And we've had interviews [00:25:00] from folks all over the country now who've either not joined the union because of their, they felt like they were too close to the school district, you know, that they were like really working together, or they reached out to the union, did not receive support, or the union didn't believe that racism existed in the district.

So it's like a very common thing that we hear over and over again with the union. Like yeah, people understand that the union is necessary and it's a good thing and we should support the union. And at the same time, there's a lot of things that the union needs to work on that a lot of them haven't come to terms with a, yeah.

A lot of the union, um, leadership and folks have not come to terms with

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Exactly, it's 2021. These, the stuff that is affecting our community has been affecting us for the longest. So for them to act like they don't know, like this is all new to them, is just gaslighting.

Kevin Adams: Yeah. Really.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah. And like I said, I called the union out for [00:26:00] their historical racist practices this year.

Their best response was an optional racism class with teachers. And then, so I went to the class just to see what it was. Yes.

Intro: Yeah.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: And it wasn't anti-racism. If anything, it was make a racist, comfortable class.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Say that

Michael Diaz-Rivera: again.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, say that again.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Racist, comfortable class. It really just gives racist the language to say that they're not racist without really asking for any action.

Kevin Adams: That's right.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: And that was a problem.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Interesting.

Kevin Adams: Uh, I, I really liked that point, you know, and you made this point about the professional development too, that you've gone through, but I think this is the experie. That, that does lead to racial bad. Because like even when you're supposed to be learning, you're like, I'm supposed to be learning something that's gonna help me be a better teacher.

You end up and, and I've sat in, uh, professional developments where it's like we have to explain to the person leading the professional [00:27:00] development why what they're doing is completely wrong.

Intro: Exactly. Yeah. And harmful. And harmful

Kevin Adams: and harmful. And I'm like, yeah, I might be getting paid for this, but I'm not getting paid like that to explain to you how you need to revamp your class and do it differently.

You know? So I think that's a really important point.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: How many of us have been that person of color in a class when the racism subject comes up and then everyone looks at you to be the expert? That is still happening to our adults. Like, yeah, folks. I'm, I'm out here suffering racial battle fatigue. I'm like, you said, y'all ain't even paying me.

I'm trying to heal.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, no, exactly. That's the, I'm trying to heal. I love that.

Kevin Adams: That's it. That's it. Yeah. That's the truth. That is the truth. Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I think this might be a good time for a break, and then we'll come back and ask some more questions. What you're thinking, Kev?

Kevin Adams: Yes. Yes. I [00:28:00] mean, I, I think we, we gotta get to the, what the official last straw I did we get to the last straw, like your la the breaking point if you want to go into it and then like, what are, how are you, because like, uh, I would tell you, Michael, you have an educator's heart, so I want to hear.

How you're continuing to work to educate the community and build those bonds and relationships and all the stuff you're doing. So, yeah. Uh, stay tuned folks. We got more with Michael Diaz Rivera.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yes. Talk to y'all soon.

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Dr. Asia Lyons: All right, so we're back. And so we're, we're coming back from the break really asking a few questions, but that first question, you kind of hinted to it already, Michael, that you were non-renewed early, um, in the school year, like a month early before school ended. So if you feel comfortable, can you share the story of like, what happened in that situation?

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah, and I'll actually start by telling a little bit of the story of the year. So, like I said, the year started, the first week of orientation, my principal pulled me into a meeting to just like have a power struggle, let me know who had the power, which she's the leader. It's okay, I can follow the leader, but then probably the next day in pd.

We [00:31:00] were talking about actually, DPS Denver Public Schools has a black excellence plan. Yes. And in this plan, every school is supposed to be talking about what we can do to address what's happening to the black community, stop the achievement gap, help our kids to grow and love themselves, et cetera. So as we're having the conversation, this white woman actually, we get put in breakout rooms.

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: I get put into a breakout room with two white women, three Mexican women. And this one white woman asks me, Michael, have you ever experienced racism? And I'm like, well, you know me. You know me. Oh man, you answered her. So yeah, I gave her the answer like, yes, of course I have experienced racism. I even experienced racism at the school last year.

And then. We eventually went back, then we went to lunch. [00:32:00] While we're at lunch, I get a meeting from, uh, I get a message for a meeting from my principal asking for a meeting because she talked to the people that were in my group and she felt like what I said wasn't professional. Then in our meeting she asked me what I said, and I say the same thing like, and I literally said her name.

I talked about the racism that I experienced and how you contributed to this racism, me be being at your school. So she says, that wasn't professional and she's going to put me on suspension.

Kevin Adams: It wasn't professional. You explaining your experiences with racism in her school. Exactly.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Exactly

Dr. Asia Lyons: when someone, and not even just volunteering, someone asked you the question, it in a,

Kevin Adams: in a year where, where the district is saying, we are having a black excellence plan, which, and, and I've always taken, it doesn't just mean black excellence for, uh, students because I think we, we know black excellence for students means black excellence for educators.

And you were advocating and, and [00:33:00] challenging those historical examples of oppression that existed even in your school building.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Yeah. Kevin, you'll actually laugh at this. There's this trash superintendent that used to have this quote, better me, better Week.

Kevin Adams: Yes, I remember that. I used to quote that all the time.

And

Michael Diaz-Rivera: that is like, he was not a good, he did not do his job, in my opinion. Yes. But I agree with that quote. If I'm a better teacher, then my kids are gonna be better. That's right. Exactly. Yes. We're gonna learn, we're gonna all thrive. But apparently DPS wasn't quite ready to make a better me and I was eventually let out, but it was just, the whole year was just a lot of that.

A lot of microaggressions. Stereotyping racial, yeah, just microaggressions telling me that the way that I talk isn't professional, [00:34:00] just am I being, um, just a really a lot of respectability politics. Yes. Yes. Like I said, my refusal to assimilate. Now for those that are listening, I would never do anything to put my students, well, actually I can't say that 'cause I did get let go of the school, but I would not do any, anything in the classroom to put my kids in a bad place.

What I did do to put my kids in a bad place was standing up for myself. And that led me being kicked out of the school early, but. I am devoted to my kids' success, and the way that I teach is I think professional. The way that I handle myself in community, with my parents, with my students, even with my leadership at the school is professional in my ex, in my opinion.

But they didn't agree, and it was just a year of that to a point where I eventually asked them for restorative conversations. I asked for restorative conversations with my principal, other school [00:35:00] leadership, many of them, even the teacher at the beginning of the year that reported me for saying my story of experience racism, I asked for a restorative conversation with her as well, and I was refused for the conversation.

Kevin Adams: Huh.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: When I did get a restorative conversation with the principal, it was really just a game of one of the principal's friends acting like they were doing what they needed to. But not wanting to follow the rules so much to check a

Kevin Adams: box check. Like we, we went through the restorative conversation. The conversation wasn't fruitful.

It didn't, it wasn't, uh, it didn't manifest anything. It was just like a convers, like, we gotta do this.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Mm-hmm. Exactly. There was no, um, there was no real hope in the conversation. It was just checking the box to say that they did it. So we did the restorative conversation. We ended up ending the restorative conversation early because they, she wouldn't even abide by [00:36:00] the protocol that her friend had put for the restorative conversation.

So even that ended up happening. Just a lot of that type of thing. My, um, we, I was a remote teacher because of the pandemic, so I needed to work with my coach to get my students supplies. There were multiple times where my coach would either lie on my students, say they had the supplies, or say that he had talked to them.

And then when I'm advocating for my kids, it's once again just saying that I'm not professional. And that is just, those continued stories are just what led me to wondering what else can I do.

Intro: Mm-hmm. I,

Michael Diaz-Rivera: I played by the rules. I talked to my principal's boss. I asked them to step in and help. I talked about the toxic environment that is at my school with other leaders at the school.

But because of the culture that is set up, [00:37:00] people really aren't ready to be accountable. And you can't force people to be accountable. They have to be accountable on their own. So it just led me to a point of, um, disheartening. I guess I was just disheartened and. Demoralized to feel that there, this wasn't the place for me and not understanding that there would be a place for me.

Intro: Mm-hmm. But

Michael Diaz-Rivera: actually to bring it to the end, at the end of my school year, I, um, my principal scheduled my end of the year meeting on April 30th. And actually I had, because I wasn't going to get the permission, I wasn't gonna get support from my union in this meeting. Mm-hmm. I decided that I didn't want to go to this meeting.

Intro: Yep.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: I knew that it was gonna be harmful for me. So I took the half day and they ended up having the end of the year meeting without me. Even with They had

Kevin Adams: the meeting without you. Yeah. They [00:38:00] gave you a rating and did all of that nonsense. I'm sorry. All of the process algae. Exactly. For

Dr. Asia Lyons: and SL

Michael Diaz-Rivera: I ended up that I was finding out that I was fired from my families.

The end of the school day came and they sent the robocall to all of my students families saying that they would be in new classrooms. So I've got parents and students calling me in tears because we didn't get to say goodbye. Mm-hmm. And so I've now gotta talk to the kids about all the values, why you're not gonna be there next

Kevin Adams: year,

Michael Diaz-Rivera: why I'm not gonna be there, but why they're still gonna be successful even without me being there.

Kevin Adams: Because you're a good, you're wonder amazing teacher, right?

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: That's what I like to think. But my school leadership didn't think that they early non-renewed me. And so now I'm in the place where. I can't get a new teaching job because the reference from my principal is stopping that. I've had schools that want to hire me.

[00:39:00] I've gone through interviews, they've even created positions for me. But when they talk to the principal, the way that the system works without her, go ahead, they can't hire me. And so I'm now starting to think about looking in other districts, but mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin Adams: But that involves moving or, or like commuting in further ways and all of this other stuff, you know, and I think for our listeners to understand, in our district, it does work that way.

That like, they have to contact the previous principal, right? And so the previous principal is just, is, is, you know, for, for no better term, shitting on you, right? Like, like over and over. Mm-hmm. Everybody. Mm-hmm. Um, Michael, like, this is, this is why your story is upsetting, you know, because. You know, even down to the end where you say, you know, I'm gonna explain to my students not why I'm not gonna be here, but why, why there's still gonna be scholars.

Right? And this is why, like, [00:40:00] we need educators like you. Uh, it's so what are, what are you doing now? Right? So I know that you're in the process of seeing what you can find, but, but what is it, what are you thinking about? You know, I think one of the things, the beautiful things about this podcast that me and Asia have found out is that, uh, there is a world of education outside of the traditional classroom.

Mm-hmm. So, uh, what are your thoughts about like where, where you might be headed and where you've been spending your time right now? Um, just tell us about that.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Ooh, I'm all over the place as you were thinking that. I was thinking of what part to tell you, but, so I'll start with the part that, for me, at first, didn't feel like it had anything to do with education, but I'm for formerly incarcerated for marijuana possession.

I have a felony. For marijuana possession. Now, some recent legislation has changed in Colorado and it's given me the opportunity to be a social equity delivery driver. Yes. So I'm starting a cannabis [00:41:00] delivery service and yes, very good. I had nothing to do with teaching, but I realized that teaching was preparing me for so many other things.

My ability to manage, my ability to calculate and do data, my ability to organize, so that that is one edge, one spot where I didn't think my teaching was going to do anything, but I am pursuing this. We delivery service. Yes, and that'll be one avenue, but I'm also trying my best to stay in education however I can.

Education is my heart. So with Black Lives Matter 52 80. We started a Freedom school. We're going on our fifth summer. It starts next week. Yes. Two weeks of teaching kids Black love. Yeah. Teaching 'em the Black Lives Matter principles and how they can love on themselves by using those principles. 'cause we know that we [00:42:00] can't teach that type of stuff in school.

A lot of the things like centering black LGBT community, that doesn't really tie to academic standards.

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: When we talk about valuing black families and Black Village, it's a little harder to tie that into academic standards. But when our kids are able to tie, tap into the things that we've been detached from.

It's so much more fruit for their success. So Freedom School is something that I'm working on, thinking about going back to school, maybe getting my master's, couple friends going, getting their doctorate thing for that Ation Asia,

Dr. Asia Lyons: no problem, no

Michael Diaz-Rivera: problemo. But, um, yeah, I'm, I, I I consider myself a lifelong learner.

So any avenue that I can learn and pass on to this education world, I plan to do it. That's volunteering in my [00:43:00] community. Maybe I'll be lucky in back in the classroom also, I've got two babies that I've gotta raise. So, see,

Kevin Adams: that's it. Lots

Michael Diaz-Rivera: of work on them is definitely a part of my work.

Kevin Adams: Yes. And, and so, um, you said the 50 80, uh, freedom School starts next week.

People still sign up then. Yes. Yep. How? What are they? Actually, no,

Michael Diaz-Rivera: no. What am I talking about? Wait. Spot taken Spots to take it. I'll tell you, is finished. We've got a wait list. They, they

Kevin Adams: wait for 2 22. They look for

Michael Diaz-Rivera: 22 Black Lives Matter. 52 80 Freedom School will be happening in the summer. And then 2023, I believe.

We're starting a year long school.

Kevin Adams: That's what's

Dr. Asia Lyons: up.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: So that's what we

Dr. Asia Lyons: need. That's what we need. Catherine, don't forget, we, this class, this recording will come out in like September, so they can't sign us anyway. Oh, good point. Thank you Asia. I told y'all

Kevin Adams: I've had a month off, so I don't even know what time [00:44:00] it is.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: So yes, by the time all here, the Black Lives Matter 52 80, freedom School will be successful. Our kids will be back in school. That's right. And, and fighting for all of us. That's,

Kevin Adams: that's what's up. That's up.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I do have one, like, one more question. You, you're kind of, you're going in that direction with like, when all this is happening, even now, when the school year started, how did community and family support you, um, help you or not?

Maybe I, I don't wanna get assumption, but I the idea support you through all of this as you were trying to figure all these pieces out. Yeah.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Like without my family and community, I would've given up already actually in my first years of teaching. I was already asking people, how is this sustainable? That is usually my first question whenever I'm talking to other educators of how do we make this education thing sustainable?

Because from the beginning I've had [00:45:00] questions of how this is even happening and how we can let it continue to happen, but so luckily I've got a community of teachers, educators, both current and former, and I've got a family that believes in me, and folks just are able to coach me through those moments where I just feel like everything's on fire and what am I gonna do?

I'm talking to Asia about how did you go through this? Um, how can I navigate this a little bit better? Talking to Kevin Herardo about what can we do to create the space for educators like us so that we're not getting kicked out? What have y'all done? And really just trying to support the work that's already been there.

But even my family, I'm the first to go to college. I take education a little more seriously than the rest of them.

Kevin Adams: That's right.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: And still when I'm like, yo, I don't know if I can do this. They're like, what do you [00:46:00] mean all that you overcame? What is this?

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: What is a leadership at a school, bullying you compared to the other forms of bullying that you've experienced in life?

You didn't take it from the police. What makes you taking it from these folks? Yeah, so that's, and that's one of the things that has been tough for me, telling my family that it might be time for me to step away and show up in a different way because my family, they. They look at teachers as heroes in a way.

Yeah. You know, like my family wasn't encouraging me to be a teacher early on, but now that I am a teacher, they, there, there is really not a higher honor mm-hmm. That I could have. Mm-hmm. Besides being an amazing father.

Intro: Mm-hmm. So,

Michael Diaz-Rivera: um, for me telling my family that it might be time for me, stepping away from the classroom has been tough at times.

But luckily, yeah. I've just got [00:47:00] so many people that I can lean on and share. Get advice from.

Intro: Yeah.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Really just figure ideas out there. There are teachers that I'm leaning on to get business advice from.

Kevin Adams: Yes. So, yeah. Yes. I love that point about, um, and I'm sorry Asia for jumping in. No, go ahead. I love the point about your family and what it means to be an educator.

I think in the black community there, there is, you know, like there is a status to it, right? There is a status and, and that it, there is honor, you know, that, that you, you just carry in your family and it, and it is, and I think when I think about like if, because you know, I think you know this Michael and Asia.

As a black educator, you go through it all the time being like, is today the la uh, to take a quote from? Is the Lord talking to me today? Is today it? But, but, but I think, you know, we all go through that and we all have those questions. And I think it goes [00:48:00] back to the fact that for us. I know I'm probably biased on this, but I think education, it just means more when we go into the classroom as black educators.

Mm-hmm. It just really, like, it's not just a job, it's not just something we choose to do. It's, it's over and over. There is, like you've described, Michael, there's a mission, there is a catalyst moment. There is is a family member, a community member that you are thinking about

Intro: mm-hmm.

Kevin Adams: When you interact with the kids.

And I think that's part of the difference, you know, and I think it's why it's critical that we have, um, black educators and brown educators in the classroom. Like it's critical black males and brown males in the classroom. But, so I think, um, oh, go ahead. Asia, you were to say something then I'll follow up with Yep.

Uh, Michael can go

Michael Diaz-Rivera: first actually. Yeah, you just made me think of something. I was just talking to a friend about that. Like black educators, so often times they want us to be the disciplinarian. They want us to be, [00:49:00] especially black men. I often seen getting pushed to behavior dean or

Intro: Yes,

Michael Diaz-Rivera: those type of, and they're not in the classroom in the way of a classroom teacher.

While I get it, we do need behavior deans and actually something I meant to talk about earlier, I don't know if a lot of these people know what happens in our real communities and our homes.

Kevin Adams: That's right. How we discipline. Exactly. How does discipline really work in a black house?

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Because some of the things that I will see happening to black and brown kids in our schools are just not okay.

Not on both. Both spectrums of either people are just brutalizing them that I wonder if these people really know our communities and what people would say if they seen the way that they were treating our kids. People really just oppressing our kids. Breaking them down, taking all hope from them. Mm-hmm.[00:50:00]

Or just allowing them to do things that are not going to lead them towards success, building bad habits, and then it just creates a world of a problem. So I forgot where I was going. But yeah, just black educators, the box that they often try to put us in and really trying to hold the space as a teacher, a classroom teacher, is something that I really value.

And actually today I had a meeting with our EDU Ethnic Minorities Affairs Council, which is Educators of Color, and I drove away from that meeting. Sad because. It's a community that I may be stepping away from in the near future. Mm-hmm. If I'm no longer a classroom teacher.

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: But also hopeful because there are so many radical, revolutionary teachers like me that are still in that space.

So to all my emac family, y'all give me help. Shout out. I know I've told y'all before, but keep it going for real. Y'all gimme help.

Kevin Adams: [00:51:00] That's it. That's it. No, that, that's an important thing to, to, to really point out. That's an important thing to point out.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Maybe it's not like the exit interview for the end of your teaching career.

Right. Maybe it's just like, it's a pause interview. It's a pause, it's a pause interview and like exiting that particular school and perhaps that particular district. But it's just like that pause and, and a chance for folks to hear during that pause. Like, what is going on in our spaces? How our teachers are needing to be heard, how our students are being treated.

Right. And so that we can't have this like, both conversation of like, we're gonna have this black excellence plan and we're gonna treat our teachers like crap. And then they can't be done. So yeah, I appreciate, I really appreciate that. Like, yeah, I'm not done. I'm not done. Right. And that's just, that gives, I'm sure so many folks out there hope, um, that like, yeah, it's okay to pause, do something else, come back to it and just be like, ready when the time is right.[00:52:00]

That's really important to, to think about. To talk about.

Intro: Yeah.

Gerardo: Yeah. Did the producer jump in for a second? Jump in producer? Yeah. What's up? It's producer mystery voice. I'm like, I'm like the, my camera's not working right now. So that's just how that is. Um, yeah, I, I think one, one of the things that really occurred to me.

Today on the way over to the EMAC gathering, Michael, is, is how much there, there's just a lot of feelings that I've kind of had, and I don't typically make an appearance on exit interview, but you're somebody that I love dearly and who's just been really important to me personally, and I know, um, the same can be said for Kevin and Asia here.

Um, but you know, the first thing for me is this is kind of what happens when, when we don't stand in solidarity with others. Um, what what happens is that those who do stand up and do [00:53:00] push hard, take all the fire. And I, you know, it's, it's like, this is just that call that all of us, you know, in EMAC and all the, all the caucuses and councils we're a part of, we're, we're gonna have to open up our eyes to and realize that we, we can't let another black teacher keep taking this fire.

Like, we have to be there to absorb as well. And so I think about that a lot. I think about how this work with the, I mean, brother there is an caucus that you're not a member of and, um, and a founding member of, and I think that that's very true. Very true. Yeah. You, you've ignited something in folks that maybe was already there, but that they're willing to kind of organized it.

Kevin Adams: Organized it. Yeah. I mean the real work

Gerardo: about you and I had a conversation about organizing today and how crucial, um, it is that we not just act in our own spheres of influence, our own little bubbles and we organize and you know, there's just something that I wanna point out. I'm aware of. [00:54:00] I'm aware of a white male teacher, um, in the state of Colorado who threatened to bring his gun to school and take care of the teachers he didn't like.

And that man's an award-winning teacher in this state. And in the meantime, yeah, I mean I, you know, I don't have to explain why. Right. And in the meantime, I'm sure there's stories out there. People get on the internet. I'm sure they find it out. Yeah. We, oh yeah. Y'all can, y'all can find it. You know, and at the same time we have, we have black educators who are being tone policed and, um, run out of the profession despite sterling records with kids, um, because they are not minding their place.

And that's. And that, and that's upsetting. You and I were talking about disappointment, Michael, and how like the bar was already really low, and yet we are still disappointed. Like we, you know, this whole field could not make the minimum and it's just really intense. And so, [00:55:00] um, I just wanted to interrupt this conversation and, uh, and just, you know, let you know how much love I and my partner have for you and, um, you know, whatever, whatever we gotta do to get you back with kids, you know what I mean?

That you we're willing to do.

Kevin Adams: Yeah. If we post a resume, like I, if don't know what teachers are doing, like. There's a, it's like LeBron James is, is is a free agent.

Intro: So like,

Kevin Adams: yeah. Like, what are y'all doing? What do y'all don don't, don't believe. Uh, I'm tired of these rumors. Keep hearing them. I cannot with you today.

Sometimes they,

Dr. Asia Lyons: oh wait. Yay. Wow. I'll say, I say like, I'm with that and I, and it, at the same time, the school has to be deserving.

Kevin Adams: That's right. True.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right? Because it's one thing I know, and I've, we've had this conversation with lots of folks on our podcast about like, the principal was dope [00:56:00] and then the principal left.

Kevin Adams: Yep.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right? Yep. And so it's like you, we say, yeah, we, we got, you know, we got your interview or blah, blah, blah. And then the principal or whoever, whoever that team was, or that crew was, that made it dope.

Kevin Adams: Yep. It

Dr. Asia Lyons: splits up, they split up, they retired, whatever. Then you're right back. Right. And so yeah, rebuild it.

Yeah. And it's like how do we, how do we make it sustainable, right? How do we keep that harm from happening where people are at home crying, people are at home, and literal, physically physical pain, right? Because in the end, that's a lot to go through, right? Yeah. We all love our students. Yeah. We all wanna see our students succeed, but at the risk of our own health and wellbeing.

And we know, like lots of folks on our podcast have come in and said like, they were hysterical, been hospitalized, panic attacks, lots of things going on because they just wanna do right by kids. Right? And so like, how do we have a conversation of, it can't just be that we, we follow the administrators [00:57:00] around.

Kevin Adams: That's right. Are

Dr. Asia Lyons: we, or the team is a perfect team this year, but then somebody goes to a different school or has a baby and stay, goes somewhere else, and now we're starting from scratch because that's just so frustrating. Right. So I, I mean, I'm with it and there's another conversation obviously that needs to be had about like, all these other pieces.

Kevin Adams: I, I mean, I love that point, Asia, so I, I think it leads to my next question to Michael is, so Michael, if, if you were, you know, brought in as a consultant, right? Because we, we think that if you, if you do leave education, you should be a consultant. 'cause that, that's where we can make, you can make money.

'cause you, you're an expert as will point out, but, uh, but what would you consult, you know, uh, principals up and coming, veteran administrators, like what would you tell 'em? How do you, how do we make sure that we don't reenact your story? How do we make sure we keep black educators in the classroom? What do we have to do?

Michael Diaz-Rivera: [00:58:00] I think, well, principals wouldn't have power over this, but we need to pay educators more for real. People don't talk about that enough. So that's one of the thing, especially educators of color, our families are not encouraging us to live a life of poverty in a quote unquote professional field. So I think paying them more, but something that principals can actually do is work on communication.

That gap between admin and teachers does not need to be there. Most admin have been teachers at some point, but I feel like folks can forget about that. And then it, it, it seems like admins start to behave in ways that they forgot the way they were when they were a teacher. Yep. And so they've gotta communicate with teachers to figure out where is that breakdown happening?

And um, yeah. [00:59:00] Really support teachers in a way that aren't making them feel targeted. Like another story of my year, this year, I went to my principal because my coach wasn't supporting me.

Kevin Adams: Yep.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: And then my principal used that as an opportunity to put me on an improvement plan that wasn't supporting me. It wasn't helping any of the things that I asked for support with.

In fact, it was things that I was already doing, but it only supported her narrative that I wasn't a good teacher by putting me on a plan.

Kevin Adams: Yep.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: It was just political games. I know that principals tend to lose autonomy when they take that role, so I kind of get it, but we can't make excuses when our kids are failing.

That's right. When our teachers are getting burnt out.

Intro: That's right.

Kevin Adams: And I think that's a really

Intro: important point. Really important.

This

Dr. Asia Lyons: seems [01:00:00] like this was, this was another fantastic episode, ke Yeah. And I, I know we could talk all night, but we don't have all night that we could, we could, we

Kevin Adams: can get, we can get into all the stuff. There's so much we that we could talk about, you know, like,

Dr. Asia Lyons: yeah.

Kevin Adams: We, we go, we go.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Uh, and I, I want, I want, maybe Michael can come back in one of our episodes in season two to say like, this is what I'm doing, this is where I am right now.

And I'd love to see that. Um, but yeah. Um, I, this has been another great episode and uh, I want to thank you, Michael. I know I've known Michael since like BLM days when I was starting BLM, and I was like, oh my God, he's so dope. You know? Um, and just, just like, yeah. I appreciate you. I appreciate you sharing your story.

Um, you're good people. Right. You good people? And so yeah, we just wanna thank you, Kev. Anything

Kevin Adams: I, I mean, I just echo Asia. You know, [01:01:00] we go back, I still remember we had lunch at Pizzeria. Locale, remember that? Mike, me, Gerardo. I'll never forget that. Back in the day. Back in the day, that was good times. That was good

Gerardo: times.

Kevin Adams: But I'm just, I'm, like I said, this episode's bittersweet, but, but like, I think Asia's right? We gotta have a part two. We need to follow up. This will keep the people kind of wondering, you know, like, like what, what happened with Mike? Because

Intro: yeah,

Kevin Adams: like you are truly an educator. Like, when I think about like what I'm doing in my classroom, I, I, I, you are one of the people who I'm, you know, like we.

Hip hop generation, right? So like, I'm always competing with my people, right? Like, yeah. You know, so like if you doing special stuff in elementary, I gotta be doing special stuff in middle school. You know, Geraldo's doing special stuff at high school. Asia's doing special stuff over at Cherry cake. Like, I'm like, I'm hearing what everybody's doing and so like, I'm just competing to try to stay up.

And, and I've always felt like that with you. [01:02:00] And, uh, you know, you've inspired me on the organizing tip, on the pedagogical tip, you know, just on the manhood tip, you know? And so I just love you and I'm thankful that you float through.

Michael Diaz-Rivera: Likewise. Thank y'all for inviting me. Thank you for having me. And same, I, I still think about that time at Pizzeria.

Y'all were my inspiration and I'm like, how do I get to be like from Asia?

Intro: That's

Michael Diaz-Rivera: literally why I wanted to recruit you into the movement. 'cause you so dope. So you know, y'all gonna keep doing good work in any way. I can support it. I'm here.

Kevin Adams: That's uh, that's what's up. That's what's up. That's what's up.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Alright, well that's the end of episode 10. We appreciate y'all giving his

Kevin Adams: last shout out. Thanks

Dr. Asia Lyons: Franz. Love y'all. Peace.