Healing From Racial Fatigue with Jason Shankle

Healing From Racial Battle Fatigue with Dr. Jason Shankle

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: [00:00:00] Welcome back to The Exit Interview, a podcast for Black educators with your host, me, Dr. Asia. Uh, so this is recording number two. I've been trying to get Jason Shankle's podcast recorded for a while now. Um, Jason and I have known each other for a long time. His podcast episode, the last one, is gone to the ethers.

The ancestors took it up. So we're back to record this, this episode again, months later. Jason, thank you for coming on the show.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Right on. Thank you for having me.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, of course, of course. So, um, You are definitely a different guest than we normally have on the show and I brought you on because of your work as a therapist, um, because of your research on racial battle fatigue and we'll get into all of that.

But we want to start off hearing a little bit about yourself. Tell us about you, your education journey, tell us about your time here in Denver, all the [00:01:00] things. Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Okay. All right. I'm Jason Shankle. I'm from Denver, the Park here area. Um, education wise, interesting journey. I started off at an HBCU one year, Texas college, transferred to Sam Houston State at PWI. And then, uh, got my bachelor's in marketing and criminal justice, then came back, went to Regis University, got my master's in psychology, now I'm finishing up my doctorate at the University of Denver, higher education. Yeah, yeah. In that final phase, right before the oral defense, because I've had to take breaks. Family first. Family first. Um, but yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, I'm pretty sure we'll, well, I guess we can jump into it now. Kind of like the, you know, the, the, my, my topic, my dissertation is, uh, on destigmatizing black male therapists through the lens [00:02:00] of racial battle fatigue.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah. Go ahead and just jump into it. Tell us about it.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah. So that actually, so it's interesting. My higher education journey is, is pretty interesting. Um, cause as you know, Regis is a Jesuit university and then going back to a private PWI university. Um, I taught psychology for five years and, and, uh, business. As well, um, have my private practice.

This is the eighth year I'm currently here and it's, um, yeah. One of the main reasons I chose that topic is just, you know, because of my walk. I used to actually be a graduate assistant there and student support coordinator and over at the National Pan Hellenic Council. And, uh, it's like 1940 on a lot of these campuses. It's like, yeah, it's like 1940, you know, when you go into these classrooms and the, uh, I mean, the gross attention. the [00:03:00] lack of cultural competency. I find that so interesting because the culture of the land, you don't have to, I mean, this is the thing is there, there's a, there's a, a language of the land and there's a culture of the land.

And when you get on these campuses and they have so, they have such gruesome history to it, like Sam Houston. He was a nasty bastard. He was a nasty devil. He was known for raping children and all types of stuff. But you know, all, all of this stuff, and that's, Houston is named after Sam Houston.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Hmm. Mm hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: that the history that chases a lot of these places.

And even with the history of DU and what they, and what they contributed to the, uh, Trail of Tears. I mean, it is, it's grotesque. It's, it's just, you know, so with being on these campuses, with being like, it feels like it's 1940. I know that there's some Black educators tuning in that teaches on these campuses or students on these campuses.

You know exactly what [00:04:00] I'm talking about. You get there and there's this, what the psychology term we like to say is cognitive dissonance. I think that's too nice. It's called selective ignorance. I call that selective ignorance. Just because you're sitting around in your white privilege, you're just going, Oh, well, it's all right.

It's just like, what makes that all right? How come that's not an illness? How come that's not, you know, and then we have all these DEI committees, you know, and the lack of attentionality of having black faces or colored people leading those. And the fact that, you know, a lot of these committees. It's like, they just go, well, how come I can't be involved? It's like energetic assault.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: just some places that it's just like, you should keep your nose out of, right? And if you really want to help, because you know, you got this, this empathy in your heart, put your money where your mouth is. Put your money where your mouth is. [00:05:00] Fund these programs. numerous students that are going, man, how come we don't have classes that's talking about racial battle fatigue? How come we don't have resources that, man, with, you know, when I need a black male therapist, Or a black female therapist. Every time I go to the university, it's just Becky sitting there and she's just going, I get it, I get it. You know, and it, I mean, and they just go, well, she's a hippie. At least she smokes.

I don't know.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: know what I mean? And then it, go ahead.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Editor, um, we're gonna pause for one second. Every time you hit the table, I can hear it

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Oh, let me,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: So,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: that.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: you know, I'm not gonna delete anything, but I just wanna let you know I can hear you slapping the table So That part and then we're going to I'm going to count down we're going to start and I'm going to ask you a question

Yeah, so it's really interesting that you talk about [00:06:00] counselors and therapists on campuses in a lack of diversity And people really like begging for black female and male therapists on campus On college campuses and so we the lack of diversity as we know is everywhere and all of all of All black folks don't necessarily want to or can't go to an hbcu And so folks love to say like just go to so and so just go to such and such and that's not That's not for everybody I want to back up a little bit and I need you to talk about this term.

You just used energetic assault Can you talk about that a little bit?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: that's on my recipe book. You know, um, I've sat on many, many committees and what I'm really meaning by that is it's literally like, you know, know your audience. Like if we're in this room talking about black issues a white person that wants to sit on the committee because you want to just [00:07:00] hear what's going on, it's just like that is violating the sacred space. It's violating the sacred space. I call it energetic assault.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: the thing. Even when individuals presence is in there, it creates this energy. Because a thing. What if your very presence is that very trigger as to why they're there in the first place?

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Why does that have to be pointed out? Why do we have to do this reverse stuff? Where it's like, well, you need to be inclusive, and na na na na na. It's just like, we're talking about black issues in here. What, what make you think it's okay to just sit in here and what are you getting off from listening about our suffering?

Like

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: what, what is that about? What is that about?

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: You know, I mean, seriously,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: And I,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: meetings out the yin yang. [00:08:00] We could have a general meeting. Get out of our space.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: it's interesting that you say that because coming from Detroit and coming here there's been so many times where it's very pronounced as a space for black folks or a space for folks of color and very much there's always non black folks in the space or non folks of color in the space even though the description says it's for black people And, you know, we, we understand it, and I love that you said that, that it's an energetic assault to have the same people that cause harm in the space, because I think I have the same feeling about when we have affinity group spaces in the school cafeteria, in the same place that we've experienced assault.

Right? Where they're like, oh, let's all come together from the district wide and have all the black teachers come to this building. Well, how do you know that that building is not the place where they've experienced [00:09:00] a trigger, right? And so I'm glad that you're talking about that. And I love that. We're bringing that i'm going to desk I'm going to credit jason on this energetic assault.

He said that's from his recipe book So we know that folks out there if you hear it, that was his first but I love that I love that you're talking about that when you're talking About racial battle fatigue and you're seeing it and you talked about Racism This is your dissertation research. It started off, it sounds like it's me search, where it's all about your own experience.

Having talked to other folks and community, what are they saying about their racialized experience and about racial mental fatigue that they've experienced?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Oh, it's interesting. So my theoretical framework I'm using is scholarly personal narrative. So it's basically like a form of urban ethnography in a way, but more centered in my story. Um, I'm going to read this definition to kind of go into that [00:10:00] part of what I've been experiencing as a Black man, but it is me. a black therapist

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: being the first to just tell people, Hey, yo, this is racial battle fatigue.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: you're not going crazy. You know,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: They may want you to believe that you're going crazy, but you got to reject that. You got to reject that stuff. So this is, so this is a definite, Oh, and William Smith, cause you, you know,

William Smith,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: I do

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Um, I'm gonna read something though that I had, um, cited. Out of his work, and it says accumulated result of, uh, natural race related stress responses to distress mental and emotional conditions. These conditions emerge from constantly facing racially dismissive, demeaning, insensitive, and or hostile racial environments and individuals. So to your question and what I've been seeing, I had done a [00:11:00] workshop for the state of Colorado some while ago and it was so interesting talking about racial microaggressions and racial battle fatigue. The thing that I noticed is it's almost like the most well known secret that a lot of black people don't know because they can't, you have to name it to tame it.

If you can't name it, you can't

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Wait, jason, you've been sitting in my on my sessions because that's what I talk about all the time They they yeah, yeah, we we and i'm sorry to cut you off But the reason why i'm so passionate about speaking at conferences and and being in community is because I want to support The language. Getting the language out there because like you said, people are crying in their car.

They are resentful. They are smoking and drinking more. They are not treating their children the way they used to. They are lots of things. John Henryism, right? But they don't know the words, the language. So you have to name it exactly what you said. And I say this when I speak. [00:12:00] You have to be able to name your experience to then do something about it.

I'm so glad you're saying that. I had to cut you off because I'm in a hundred percent agreeance about that.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, definitely. We got to name entertainment. And there's many times very memorable looks on black, black folks faces while talking about these pieces. It's almost like a

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: in and they just

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Wow. Like what you just described is something that I felt was undescribable because I was in it.

I feel it, you know, these, this, the culture of this company, we got to really. We really gotta, know, we really have to be intentional around putting guardrails around our culture,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm. Mm

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: And, and, you know, and being tribal. Even when we're in these corporations, like, we still gotta be on code.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: We still gotta be on code. Seriously.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: [00:13:00] like what you said, you gotta name it. And that's one thing, that's a phrase I constantly use in here. Because I'm a lot of black man's first therapist. Black women too as well. And white people come see me too. And that's cool, you know. I'm about healing. Like, less heal. But a lot of black men come see me. And they're like, man, this is my first time coming up in here, man. I

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: and a language. Like what you said. It's a language. It's a lingo, right? You can't just, you can't fake vibes. You can't fake the energy. You can't fake the frequency. You can't fake consciousness. You can't fake it,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: So, this topic, I see a lot of more black people being a bit more curious. And as they name it, in some of those workshops that I was doing, being able to be emotionally objective about it. Because that's the thing, we are very soulful, and, and, we're the most [00:14:00] soulful people walking around

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Everybody want to be black, so it's time to be black. Everybody walking around, hip hop out and all of this other stuff, and you know, culture vulturing, that's what I call

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: right? And we're the kings and queens walking around here, so when we name this stuff, see a lot more black people going hmm, you know what, I knew something was up. And my definition of, you know, of racism is just, is designed to make you feel like you're going crazy.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: It's designed that way.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: I'm seeing a lot more black people actually standing up and kind of going, no, something ain't right.

And especially when you say racial battle fatigue. It's one of those things, even when you say it, if they don't know the exact definition, they know where you're coming from. They just kind of go,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah Jason this is so, you know, so many things are going through my mind But [00:15:00] this idea of people, you come into your workshop, and you're presenting, and you can physically feel the shift. Where, it, right? Where this, they're like, stunned, then they're processing, and then they, there's this energy of like, okay, then what's next?

Right? Do you, I mean, do you feel that in your workshops? Because I definitely, there's definitely this arc where when I first, I'm starting and I'm like any, any questions? And people are just processing all of their symptoms on a screen.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: For real.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, and I don't know, I know you said you, you spoke at the state of Colorado.

A lot of the work that I do focuses on, um, this, in education, the K 12, a lot of K 12 folks and union folks and things like that. But it's very interesting because you're right. Once we see it, it's like that's it, right? Um, I'm so glad you're saying that and can you read that definition one more time for [00:16:00] us, please?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yes, a cumulative result of a natural, uh, race related stress response to distressing mental and emotional conditions. These conditions emerge from constantly facing racially dismissive, demeaning, insensitive and or hostile racial environments and individuals.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, hostile environments and individuals.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: That part,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: I'm gonna need to put that in the show notes. I'm gonna need you to send that to me so I can send that put that in your show notes because that definition I've not heard before from Dr. Smith. So I'm glad because I've seen others that talk about that. The time taken out of your day to cope with experiencing racism that involved the physiological, psychological, emotional, behavioral, um, responses that we have.

And it really focused on all the time we [00:17:00] spend processing through it. thinking about it, trying to push it down, can't sleep, rehearsing the situations in our mind. And so that's what I've heard, but I like that definition as well. And I'm sure that the audience would love to read more about that too.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: hmm. Yeah, I'll send that to you. I'll just screenshot and send it to you.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, please do. So

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: is

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: that being said, and we've brought you on because of your skills as a therapist, can you tell us what are some ways that you, like, a strategies, That folks can use beyond therapy because yet therapy's number one folks. Let's just hear that But what are some strategies that folks can use like utilize at home with themselves with their families to cope with racial battle fatigue Um some things that you've suggested to your to your clients

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, so definitely, you know, get a, get a black therapist.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm. Mm hmm[00:18:00]

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: you cannot spell spiritual without ritual. The way you wake up, know, what is the routine, you know, if we, if we get up and we shooting into our day like a, Like it's a track meet, right? That's, it's not a good thing. So what I would say is, is one of the first things is, you know, what is the root?

We can call it a ritual. We can call it a habit. We can call it a routine. Cause I know some people kind of go, Oh, is it? You know what I mean? But it really is. It really, really is. So what I would say is, is something to start off with. It's like, read something philosophical in the morning. And if you're a history buff, one book that I'm recently, we all. I got it in the car. Uh, African myths and legends. You know, to know the true history. Something to get your mind occupied because when we talk about racial battle fatigue, right, a lot of individuals take yesterday and today. Right, you wake up, and then Lord forbid, you know, you're in a toxic [00:19:00] situation, or a toxic, you know what I mean, you come home, you know, you go from war to war to war, know, it's like, that's not, you know what I mean, so really, you gotta have your sacred space, you gotta have your sacred time, and you gotta, and you have to protect it, you have to protect it with reverence. gotta have emotional boundaries. So this goes both ways, even with racial battle fatigue, right? Because we're dealing with this stuff at work and then we come at home, right? And we, hey, this is, this is supposed to be the sacred, this is supposed to be sacred space. I would also suggest like a, a, a prompt journal to like, you know, um, That will prompt you to write something like one book that I'm uh, looking at that I'm using right now It's called for empath and healers.

It's uh, um, I don't know if this is gonna be live But if you know people start buying that, you know She should be fronting me. You know plugging me to

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: I

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: but anyway [00:20:00] anyway

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Okay

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: called 21 Exercises. So it's not a specific person. They roll out different ones.

Um, this one is for empaths, for individuals that are empaths. I mean, it is very taxing. very taxing. Um, you got to be able to do your cleanses. So, and also, um, something that is not talked about as much, fragrances. Right? A lot of people kind of go, man, get your mind right, get your, you know what I mean?

But it's just like, get your environment right. Get your vibration right. Right? And one of my models is, you know, the midnight hits, yesterday so long ago. Every day is a new life. So we, you, you gotta be able to foster things that are just for your spirit that you don't compromise on. Yes, there's some things you should not compromise on.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Talk more [00:21:00] about talk more about the fragrances

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Oh, yeah. So, Frankincense, Myrrh, um, Santos wood, sage, um, even non scented candles, um, lavender, right? Setting the environment, right? Setting the environment. I all of this stuff matters because what you hear it all the time. Well, I don't have time. I don't have time. Well, it's always been 24 hours in a day. not making time, right? You're not making

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Making time for your healing making time for your healing.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: and that's the thing you can't compromise on for real. Maybe you have to put it on D and D in the morning. If you know that some people calling it in their energy vampires or their, you know what I mean? You got to take care of your emotional equity in your life. got to look at your relationships because you got to be able to protect [00:22:00] that and it's an emotional equity it's like having a board and Everybody wants to say something, but everybody doesn't have voting power,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: you came here to just eat chips drink pop or whatever you want to do, and you don't have any voting rights.

You're wasting your own time. That's how I view your emotional equity board, right? You got people that's in your life. You got your kids, you got your spouse, you got, you know, and when you go to work, that thing should be like a subset committee, right? Where you go, I go to work, I get the job done. I demand respect, right? I know my worth. And by the way, when I get up in the morning, it's about me. First things first, be first, Well, put God first, yeah, but this is the thing, God dwells in, this is how I've been. God dwells in me as me. So when I'm putting myself first, I am putting God first. I'm wanting the same. I can't convert.

I'm already a God. I'm not saying that to be [00:23:00] humorous, hubris or anything like that. This is my walk.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: whenever I'm putting myself first, I am putting God first because God's in me and I am God in my life. So. You, we got to be able to prioritize our emotional equity because we can sit here and talk about coping tools or when you go on to work and, Oh man, you know, I could try to avoid and all this other stuff, da, da, da, da. But if you get your energetic armor on, what can they really do?

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: What can they really do? And document every damn thing just in case it gets, you know, it, it, it, it gets to that point. But that's the thing. That's, that's why. The, the, the, the rituals or the routines that you wake up with is just as, as important as your coping tools. That's why I'm saying ritual piece because a lot of people, we got to, sometimes we got, we have a lot of reactionary [00:24:00] healing, right? Like some shit got a fall and it said, Oh, I need to get a book. You should have been doing that. You should have been doing that. do you, what, what you mean? Also, you got to go through a crazy breakup to start asking yourself, do I even know what love means? Now, you want to pick up all about love by bell hooks? Stop this reactionary healing stuff, right? Healing requires maintenance. It requires it. A lot of people go, oh, I'm healed, I'm never going to, hey, every day is new. Every day is different at some point. So that's why I'm, I'm really, I'm really, really echoing. The importance the rituals or routines or habits that you do when you wake up in the morning.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: I want to I want to pause you for a second. I find it so fascinating That when dr. Smith came on the [00:25:00] podcast, this had to been two years ago He essentially named exactly what you're naming You And when I talk in community about what he suggested, I have to point out to folks and I'll point out to the audience now that Jason is not telling you to go into your job and change the minds and hearts of people at your job.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Thank you.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Dr. Smith said this, Jason saying the same thing. This is very much about you and about what you need for self and it's not start a book club, start a committee.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: No.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: and that and burn yourself up to try to convince people to see you as human.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: because I think that so many people, Dr.

Smith talked about picking your battles. So many people want to hurry up and like hammer down everything at the [00:26:00] expense of their mental health, their families, their emotional, all the things. And so if you did not hear that episode go back and listen to it, but jason's saying the exact same thing Get a black therapist rituals in the morning journal prompting Me first is god first smells and fragrances And I have to say my husband was going to jason for a long time for therapy He always come back with a few incense.

I'm like, oh jason gave you some incense again, right? So like the smell right you having her so basically having her space as a place Of comfort and black consciousness looking at your relationships and evaluating your relationships And I love this we have to stop the reactionary healing, right? I think that so many people that i've talked to thought that they were the one that racism couldn't happen to them at work Right, and it's just like well, they couldn't fire me because i'm the head of blah or i'm running this project [00:27:00] And then once everything falls down, they want to come and say I can't believe they treated me like this And then they want to, like you said, come into your office, right, and try to get all the tools when we should have been in therapy,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Thank

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: we should have been reading, we should have been had our incense out, we should have been had our ritual.

So um, I just had to pause there and I really appreciate this. If anything else you want to add, cause this is great. Mm,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Um, meditation. You know, uh, meditation is like, kind of like the, the soundtrack to God's voice within you. If you're talking, how are you really listening? And sometimes you have to. quiet our minds in order to really go, man, where am I at? Can I reset and not have this energetic, this energy exchange spill over? Um, but yeah, that's, that's the only thing that I would add to that piece. Um, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, um, [00:28:00] grateful that the way you point these pieces out and you lace them um, cause by no means not here to change people's mind. So I really like that, you know, it changed people's minds as far as, you know, when it comes to racial battle fatigue.

Like what, uh, Dr. Smith was saying, don't go in there trying to change their minds. Say, hey, treat me better, or hey, let's have a better work environment. know, it's, it's, it's toxic on it's own. And we cannot use toxic tools in order to bring healing. It's too much caked up blood on it. It's too much caked up negativity on it.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: That's, that is, that is not. That's a fool's paradise. That's a path to fool's paradise. It really is. That's chasing the wind. Focus on your spirit. Focus on yourself. Right? Have things that you do not compromise on. I get it. We like to, you know, all in the [00:29:00] sunlight. But no, there's some things that, no, I'm not compromising on that. I'm not allowing you to come over here and put three things on my tally when you are the director. don't want to pay me things that you extended to me. And I get it. Some people say, Hey, you can't really do that. You can't, you know, say, but it's just like, Hey, you gotta have some boundaries. You gotta be able to have some boundaries.

And you say, Hey, look. Because that's another thing, and you know it too, we hear that all the time. They say, man, I'm doing, I'm doing regional director work and this is getting put on me. And they're going, yeah, maybe we might give you a raise, maybe. It's like, I'm actually doing your damn work.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Like we don't know that, right?

That's disrespectful. There's got to be a different way to maneuver this stuff where it's like, yeah, I need to have a talk with this person. Why don't you respect me because I feel like you're putting this stuff on me is [00:30:00] professional development I don't need no more that

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Right, right.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: I don't need no more that I'm not compromising on Disrespectful energy. I'm not doing it. We got to meet in the middle of the bridge So like what you were echoing with Dr. Smith was saying Yeah, don't go in there and try to change minds for what?

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, I want to back up a little bit and ask you a question that I had not planned, but I think it's important to ask. The first thing that you mentioned was, and I mentioned too, was finding a black therapist. And there are folks out there who are just leaning into the idea of therapy and then let alone finding a black therapist, right?

So, what are some things that people can do To help them to know that they found the therapist that's right for them. Other [00:31:00] questions to ask How do you know if it's a good fit as a as a person receiving therapy? What does that look like for folks?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: You know, it's interesting, it's a, it's, I, I say it's a vibration, you know, it's a frequency. I mean, have you ever just like met somebody and said, man, hey man, that dude, that person's cool. I kind of get that feeling. Then you met some people where you're just like, man, don't give a damn if I see them ever again.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Facts.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Don't care.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yes. Yes

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: So it's the energy thing is some questions to ask that I would suggest is. You know, ask what their modalities are. I know you can go to their website and things like that, you know, ask that, know, ask those questions.

And then also, you know, do your, do your research, you know, and just, and this is the thing you could tell a lot how a person [00:32:00] answers a question, right? another question that is a very good one to ask is, what is your philosophy towards you use in therapy, or what's your, what's your go to modality type of piece going to that?

Because, you know, asking the therapist that, you know, you'll be able to see kind of like, Oh, this is some of my strategy. This is kind of where I'm going about this type of piece. But it's really an energetic thing. It really is. Because sometimes, because it's, you know, and it's that connection piece. It really is.

I mean, it, it, it really does matter. It does matter. So. That's, that's one thing that I would say, um, do your research, uh, as you're doing that, right? And then also, if somebody referred you, you know, and they say, hey man, hey, you need to go see a therapist, you know, and you might already know why, you're just like, I'm shot out all the time.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: And then when you go in, you can just kinda go, you [00:33:00] know, even before you get to the therapist, you know, and that person that referred you, right, they may just say, hey man, you're going through so much. I just think a therapist would be. Essential for you. You know, ask that person that referred you. What has therapy done?

You know, how has some therapy has helped you over the years? Because typically if somebody is not for therapy, I mean, they probably ain't handing out therapist referrals, right? And that would be a way to build some rapport there to kind of go, man. Because sometimes we got to get sick and tired of being tired.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: And in that coup de grace, man, it came where they just say, yep, I broke up with this lady. keep choosing the same woman with a different name. I'm convinced. I'm the problem.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: yeah,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: You're the common denominator in all your problems.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: yeah, I think that same under that same vein of I broke up with us different jobs right And, and, not even, and even if it is racial, like racially [00:34:00] motivated, not accepting that's what it is. Right? So the same idea, yeah, yep,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah. For real.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: yeah,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: So, yeah, that will be some go to's, you know, um, with that piece.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: thank you, sure,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: them up. Look them up on LinkedIn and then maybe ask a question about one thing or something like that. But, it's typically, this is the thing, with a lot of individuals that's never been in therapy, more often times, because I do all my screening, some people don't know. They just don't know. They just know, like, I just need help. Um, you know, I, they're having an issue naming it. They're like, I'm having anxiety attacks. I don't know what to do about them. You know, so they may not even be in that space to be as inquisitive to see if, like, oh, what's the fix? So that's why I say it's more of a vibrational thing because, um, When they're being vulnerable like that and that therapist is taking that moment to [00:35:00] ask pivotal questions Where it's just like, hey, you experiencing more manic depression or mania?

Oh, I don't know what that is Well, let me explain to you what the difference between these two. it sounds to me for what you're talking about it's you have a lot of anxiety Anxiety, the latin root of that word before they assassinated that language is anxiety means to choke out. That's why when a

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: mmm,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: attack, it feels like they're drowning. Just as saying something like that, and I've had screenings with individuals before scheduling, I've had them, before we get off the phone, just say, man, you just lining that out really makes me, it's making me excited to come and sit down because to me it's very scary. It does feel like I'm going to die because I can't breathe. But just being able to know what's going on with me. Like, going on? [00:36:00] What is this called? Once again, like what you talked about and what we're talking about. We gotta name entertainment. And sometimes people just don't know.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: yeah,

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: They just don't know.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: yeah, I love that, Um, since we're in this same vein, I would like you to please tell folks, first of all, are your books open? Can people even come and see you before I do all this? Uh oh, his eyebrows are up.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: yeah, yeah, we can do it.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Okay, so okay so before I go into how to find this man and then y'all we say he's canceled out so folks who um are in the denver area Uh, are you do you do telehealth or is it mostly in person?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: I do telehealth

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Okay, so tell us how to find you the name of your like your therapy practice all the information about you linkedin because If you know nothing about Jason Shankle, he stays on LinkedIn with the resources. So, [00:37:00] give us all that information, please.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Okay, so I'll give you the rundown. So Inner Self and Wisdom, this is where I'm at right now, my office. Um, so Inner Self, I N N E R, and then self, and then andwisdom. com. Um, a lot of my resources are on there. Um, the number to the site is, uh, 720 651 2556, that's the business line number, um, but typically then I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, a lot of those places, I'm on Patreon, A Moment With Jason Shankle. Um, I put a lot of interviews and stuff up, uh, that I do with like Brother Jeff and quite a few other individuals and stuff. Um, and then I have a non profit that I started that I'm looking to, you know, uh, combat the racial battle fatigue and also, you know, other workshops, these healing workshops. And now my non profit is the Black and Mental Health and [00:38:00] Wellness Coalition. So and it's actually, you know, getting a lot of, a lot of steam. So. A lot of workshops, um, exploring nature in a way too as well with mental health and individuals. And resources, like what I said at the beginning of this call, you know, put your money where your mouth is. I'm practicing this stuff. I'm practicing this stuff. It's our responsibility to take care of our communities, not onlookers.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: just doesn't work. and then, uh, I guess since we're on that, um, addition to that, all right. So I'm an author. Um, I was showing that lady's book. I'm gonna show my book.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, show your book.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: yeah,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: see it because it's on, it's on, uh, but still tell us all about it.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Okay, cool, okay.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: What's it called?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: gotta give me no key.

So this is called Suffer Less, Meditations for Transforming Trauma into Healing. Um, this is under my philosopher name, uh, Jay Shankle. [00:39:00] And then my, my poet pen name is Black Azar, or pronounced Black Azir, however, you know, uh, it just means Black God. and all of these are found on Amazon. Um, my second one is Crowns of Shattered Dreams.

And my first poetry book is Soul Searching Poetry. So, and that's the thing with reading and all these other pieces, like, uh, I am working on my first therapist book, um, that has been in the making for, ever since I began, you know, ever since I began. So that's another way that I want to, uh, you know, bring a resource to the world where it's just like, Hey man, you know, I'm working on myself. reading this book and I'm actually, you know, healing instead of just being reactionary and just fixing things and putting duct tape on stuff. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where I could be found. Innerselfandwisdom. com. I'm on Um, and it's evident my name is at the bottom of this [00:40:00] interview and it's evident y'all listening to us.

So if you type in Jason Shankle therapy or just Jason Shankle, um, I'm not hard to find on the internet.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Maybe outside, yeah. But,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: He said maybe, he said maybe I'm introverted a little bit, but not, but not on these interwebs. Um, when we, when we get back, I'm going to ask you a few more questions. Okay. Um, so folks hold on and while we're on our break, maybe go find his website. Maybe go get set up with an appointment Um, or or follow him on linkedin, but we'll be right back.

All right, welcome back So we're interviewing jason shanko. Jason has given us so much information about ways to combat racial battle fatigue um, and I'm just so glad to have had him finally on the podcast and the recording is working 'cause I keep looking up to make sure the [00:41:00] red light is on. 'cause that is my fear.

This is such great information. So we're wrapping up our show and I'll ask you the questions that I ask all of the folks that come on. That first question is, is there a black educator or educators that you would like to shout out?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: You know, yes, yes, yes. You know, actually, shoot, four come to mind.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm-Hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: And I'll go in the order as I met them. Two of them I know you know very well. Um, First one would be Miss Knight. was one of my high school African American teachers. Uh, she taught African American history and I was her assistant in there. And I've always had a reverence for, uh, black truth and black consciousness.

So that was really cool that she had took a liking to me and said, Hey, I'm going to make you my assistant. I was like, Oh, okay. You know. Uh, the next one will be [00:42:00] Peggy Lyons. might be a kid vote.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: maybe?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah, Peggy Lyons down at, uh, it was out of HBCU. never forget that meeting her. She was the first one She was actually my first college instructor like when I first came into the zoology was my first class and I went there Early, and I said dang.

I thought it was a different time, and this is in Tyler, Texas And I remember as she was taking more of a liking to me, I remember when she, you know, she said, you're an erudite. And I was kind of sitting there and I said, damn, she calling me names, what's going on in here, man? I said, damn, erudite, huh? Okay, I don't know what that is, I hope it's good. What erudite means is someone that pursues knowledge with reverence,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: That's what an erudite is, because she was talking to me, she said, you're different. Yes. You're different, I can tell. The way you answer questions is different. So Peggy Lyons, I've never forgot that word. The minute she told me that word.[00:43:00]

At first I said, damn. I said, wow. Man, she assaulted me? What's going on? I don't know what's happening right now. You know?

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: That's real.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: was like, whoa. But um, then the next two. Dr. Tewitt. Dr. Frank Tewitt. Man. So much respect for that man. Um, and uh, I don't know. Yeah, the work that he had done and, and you know, um, me designing, um, the Black Male Initiative Summit, doing the, the curriculum and things like that, that's where I met Dr.

Frank And he was the one that approached me and said, Have you thought about being a doctor? Have you thought about

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: not really. You know, he said, Well, you should think about it. You should think about it. You know, there's resources and stuff here and it's great work that you're doing. You know, um, so Dr. Frank Tuitt, um, yeah,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: dude. And

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Solid.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: last, the last person I [00:44:00] will, uh, mention is Dr. William Cross.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: That's my guy. As well with Dr. Tuitt. Um, I have met Dr. Cross during some of the curriculum designing and development as well. So, you know, by the second year, he had come in, and the first year, it was just awesome. And really, you know, my background is psychology. So, and they brought him in. They said, man, you gotta take a look at this guy. You gotta see what this dude designed and impressed. You gotta, you gotta take a look at this. Cave sat in there. Just, just amazing stuff. Amazing stuff. I learned so much from them.

But yeah, um, those four. and, those last two, oh my goodness,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Mm hmm.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: so supportive, so, yeah,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: so much, so much respect for all of them, [00:45:00] Dr. Frank and Dr., Dr. Cross, man,

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: goodness, goodness. I learned so much from those men.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: Yeah. Thank you. I bet you have. Um, our next one is, and our final, what's been bringing you joy these days?

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: You know, um, traveling. Um, my children, of course, um, nature, and uh, my pen, you know, I have been writing, I've been putting myself in intentional, peaceful, sacred spaces. Not just falling in them and just going, oh yeah, this looks like a cool place to have a picnic or some craziness. No, I'm intentionally going out and I'm going, you know, hmm, I think I'm going to go ahead and hike. And while I'm [00:46:00] hiking, I'm going to take my, you know, vlogger camera on me. And then I'm just going to, you know, look at the sun and walk through mountains uh, ask myself a question, you know, be, be more curious. But yeah, I would say, you know, children, traveling, my pen, I, I love to write. And you know, one thing I say is, is creativity is a symptom of healing. I really believe that. To be able to be in a creative space. it's the ultimate emotional freedom that I experience being able to make decisions professionally and personally and, and be able to travel as much as I do. Um, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's food for the soul. And going back to Africa before the end of the year, that's something I'm doing every year. [00:47:00] I would suggest, black folks, go back to Africa, learn a language, learn another language. There's so many languages, black languages, or just another language, period, but get back to Africa.

dr--asia-lyons_1_07-17-2024_144253: They all have. Well there you have it folks, and I'm going to add to that list, Peaceful Sacred Spaces. I love putting myself there, not falling in them. And the travel, like all those on that, uh, making it to that list that we talked about earlier. Alright folks, so Jason Shankle's been hanging out with us.

That was beautiful. We thank you so much. Again, please go out and find a black therapist. Um, Jason's books are open so you may be able to squeeze in there and um, take care of yourselves and we'll talk to you later. Peace.

squadcaster-303f_1_07-17-2024_144253: Right on.

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