Episode 26_ Special Episode_ Dr. Asia on The Thoughtful Counselor Podcast

Dr. Desa Daniel: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Thoughtful Counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence-based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses.

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Hi everyone, this is De I'm super excited to have Asia with me [00:01:00] today, Dr. Asia Lyons. Um, and we're just gonna talk about some stuff I'm super interested in, um, but also kind of how I came to know you. So as some general background, I posted on LinkedIn like, Hey y'all, I got a big girl job. Um, and Asia's like, welcome to Denver.

I live in this area, let's meet up. Um, and then I just made her be my friend. And so now we're friends and once a month we try to get together and have lunch and just talk about what it's like to be black women in Denver and Aurora, but also what it's like to be in this education space, um, and just have these experience and conversations.

So I'm super excited to have you on the Thoughtful Counselor Podcast. Um, and maybe we could just start off with like just a brief, like what should we know about you? What are you most excited

Dr. Asia Lyons: about today? Sure. Um, hi everyone. My name is Dr. Asia Lyons. [00:02:00] So good to be on the podcast. DAA has a whole podcast out here with like, like real serious, like lots and lots of episodes and I'm thoroughly impressed as usual.

Uh, I have, I'm originally from Detroit. Moved out to Denver in 2006 to be an educator. Taught in a local district for 12 years. Went into the nonprofit sector after that for a little bit, and yeah, have a consulting firm and some another po. A podcast too called the Exit Interview, a podcast for black educators.

And yeah, that's it. And what am I up to today? Which bringing me joy today. I don't know all the things. The sun is out, it's warm. I have air conditioning, so I'm happy. I mean, it

Dr. Desa Daniel: was, Asian knows more than anyone that I had a rough winter. I was like. Is winter ever gonna end? Um, yeah. The snow was up, the snow was making you mad.

The snow was, we were not, we were not besties. But now it's [00:03:00] in warm 91 and I'm enjoying the sun on my face.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Ugh, gross.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Okay, so jumping into it, I really wanted to start with just the work that you're doing and mm-hmm. I have learned just so much about you over the last almost year now, which is wild. Um, 'cause it feels like a lot longer.

But also what connects us is our work, um, and research, but just also space and time. Um, and so I was curious like why you wanted to do work on battle racial fatigue and like how that work came to be. Um mm-hmm. And then how that has helped kind of move you into the work that you're doing right now.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

So I. I think that racial battle fatigue found me more than I found it. So as I said, I was a teacher for 12 years in a local school district and experienced a lot of racism related stress in the last couple years of [00:04:00] teaching. And so I decided to leave teaching and try some other things. And when I was starting to do my research for my, um, just out on my dissertation research and what I wanted to, to to study, I fell upon the term racial battle fatigue.

Actually, that's not true. I learned about it earlier in my career before I started doing dissertation research, but really dug into it more and realized what was happening to me in school, the racism related stress, and the ways that it was impacting me and my family. I had a name for it, and so it was like, okay, it makes sense for me to do more research on the ways that racial battle fatigue.

Impacted me and impacts black educators and our family members. So it kind of was happening with my me search that my research was my me search, and from that kind of pulled me into, um, supporting community who was experiencing racial battle fatigue, [00:05:00] um, talking about it on my podcast, things like that.

So, yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Okay. So maybe I should start just with what is battle racial fatigue and how do you define it?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Sure. So it's the responses that we, the psychological, physiological, emotional behavioral responses that people of color have to racism related stress. So there are six different types of race, six different types of racism related stress, racism related life events, like curious racism, experiences, daily racism, micro stressors, chronic contextual stress.

Collective experiences of racism and transgenerational, um, transmissions of racism. So those six different, um, according to Dr. Harrell, those six different types of racism, when we experience it as people of color, our bodies respond to it in very [00:06:00] specific ways. So for example, we talk about silence, resentment, um, heart palpitations, inability to sleep, uh, crying.

These are ways that our body responds to experiencing this racism. And that is racial battle fatigue, right? So that's what it is. It's a response to the racism that we experience. So again, my research is really specific to like, how are black educators experiencing it or how are black educators experiencing responding to racism in their workplaces?

Like what types of racial battle fatigue are they experiencing? That was my research and that is still my research really.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Okay. So as you're like teasing out this question, right, and it sounds like you're also experiencing this yourself as a black educator.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Um, like what are your thoughts around like why black educators may be more susceptible or like might experience battle [00:07:00] fatigue more than like anyone else in that space?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, so teaching in itself, and when I'm talking about being an educator, I mean school therapists, educators, paraprofessionals, administrators, what central office education already is very taxing, right? All these dynamics and policies and people, and then it is a very white space, white female dominated space, right?

And so if you're in a stressful space period that is white female dominated, period. You are a minoritized voice in that space in society, but in also in that space, then it kind of conflates, right? So we have all these things happening and I feel like, um, that's why we see, see it. I'm not gonna say more than any other space, 'cause I don't know if that's true or not, but I will say you see racial battle fatigue happening and education a lot, which is why we have such a hard time with retention of black [00:08:00] educators in teaching spaces where maybe retention is not as big of an issue in other industries.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Okay. So as you're talking, really thinking about, especially now with COVID and like this double T pandemic of racism and like a, a kind of a racial awakening, but not really. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then also, um, just how taxed. Education has become like the amount of pressure we put on educators that like informs me to think that with battle racial critique, we then also see black educators have to do some even heavier lifting of like caring racial conversations, making their spaces brown.

Like all of these extra Yeah. Um, like mental in intelligence conversation. Mm-hmm. Um, coupled [00:09:00] with the connection of like self-preservation as well. Like I don't see a lot of just time and space to

be able to process. Yeah. So it's also like the nonstop. And so that's the part where I really think about not just like. Racial battle fatigue, but then also the really, the fatigue parts.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. The invisible labor of

Dr. Desa Daniel: just like the constant, nonstop ness of it.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. So I heard someone a long time ago call that invisible labor.

Hmm. Yeah. Um, and it, and I, yes. So the invisible labor of being an educator of color period is always there. Right. And the invisible, it becomes invisible labor because we're not paid for it. And it, and it also is not on our evaluations to help us get to mastery or whatever they wanna come up with, that [00:10:00] grades work, but that the idea of youth or people, ed, uh, students of whatever age, constantly being in our space, reaching out to us because there we're a few, one of a few at a university or in a K 12 space.

Um, and I feel like, and I left teaching before the pandemic, and I still have folks in education that I'm friends with. So all of that. We experience is, is now exacerbated because there's less of us in the space. So with the great resignation mm-hmm. I guess it was called now there's even fewer black educators, brown educators in spaces.

So they're ones that are left are experiencing more students coming in to talk to them or wanting to be, um, asking to be committee chairs for the folks. Like all the things are happening, but people aren't getting compensated in any type of way for that work. And so then we end up having to put on some boundaries in place around saying no.

Right. Mm-hmm. Um, not at this [00:11:00] time because it's just not enough of us. Right. And no, nor would there ever be enough of us.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. And as you're talking about, I also think like, and I think you said one of the, not steps, but one of the parts of it was kind of this generational trauma. Yeah. Was that part of mm-hmm.

So then I also think, right, like, it, it doesn't matter if you got out. Like in 2020 or like if you got out in um, like 2010, that constant momentum, even if you weren't necessarily an active member in that momentum to begin with, you're then, you then feel it later on. So it's like,

Dr. Asia Lyons: yeah,

Dr. Desa Daniel: if like I'm new, I'm like, I'm a now gonna be a second year faculty member.

And even though I haven't necessarily been in my space, I still feel the like, inertia and like the momentum of like all the black people who came before me, even if I haven't met them personally. [00:12:00]

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. So we talk about that transgenerational transmission of trauma. We, I, I specifically give the example of brown versus board, right?

And before Brown versus board we had 80,000 some odd black educators in America. After Brown V Board, we have 40,000, which a majority of them were lighter skinned people. So we're still filling that in our spaces, right? And so on top of, like you said, like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and you have educators like myself who've left teaching who will meet black educators and they'll look at me or they'll look at other people who've left teaching and say, I can do that.

I can run a business, I can start a nonprofit. I can work in this space. And so there's this push out. That's happening without us saying anything. And then there's also a pullout, right? Where we're pulling, those of us outside of education fields are saying like, girl, you don't have to deal with that. You can do this, you can do that.

You can work for this [00:13:00] place or that place. So we are, it's that constant feeling of that, right? And you hear stories of like, oh yeah, such and such used to work here, but she left four years ago. She left two years ago that he was so dynamic, but he left a year ago. That's also that, that narrative of why are people leaving?

That's sitting on people's minds too. Like you just said, that it's there even if you weren't there in that space five or 10 years ago.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. It's so interesting to me because it's, um, like I spent a couple of weeks in Australia and it's like this same conversation was happening there as well in education spaces of like, um, which I was also like not surprised, right?

Like every single country in the world is having a a, a racial conversation, even if they're maybe not. As in it as we are in the us. Mm-hmm. Um, but that same conversation of talking, talking to another black woman and having her explain her experience and then having kind of like [00:14:00] a, a white colleague of ours be like, well, that's the experience of like most brown people at that university.

And like, that's how everyone talks about it. Right. And so I'm just like, mm-hmm. Like, it's almost impossible to change the narrative of how we support black and brown folks in these spaces when like the institutions, whether it's a university or what, whether it's just education as a whole, will always have this like attachment of like the downfall of.

Black and brown professionals like Yeah. Everyone who's done that are like, nobody lasts there. Right. And so I think as you're saying, like going back to um, uh, going back to Brown of like, if we lost half of black educators, then, then like we've always been behind. Like, we've never, [00:15:00] ever fulfilled that.

Like, and it's right, like it's hard 'cause it's like we shouldn't have to replace folks, but like, we've never brought in a new generation of black educators. And so no matter what, it's always like, even if it's not a direct, like, oh, this happened in the thirties or forties, it's like, like you said, there's all these conversations about the people who left before you got here.

Yeah. And even if you don't know them directly, you feel their presence just in the stories of like, and the wondering of like, why did they leave? Or like, what are they doing now? Or like, what is the conversation?

Dr. Asia Lyons: I had, I was at the movies, um, a couple weeks ago and I ran into one of my students and he was 20 at the time.

I taught him he was 11, and he said, Mrs. Lyons, is that you? And I turned around and he's like, I knew it was you. I came back to the school looking for you a couple [00:16:00] years ago, but you weren't there. I thought you moved back to Detroit. Right. And that's a, he's a third student. And the last, I don't know, I'd say four or five months that I've seen that said the same thing.

I thought you moved away. And I think that's, so that's why it's so important that we do tell our story so that people understand, like we get to, to finish up that narrative and say like, no, this is what happened. Right. Because our students are, look, it's not just our colleagues. Our students are looking for us.

They want us to be there. We've impacted them, black, white, or otherwise. We've impacted them positively, hopefully. And so we, they want us, they wanna see us back where they left us, right? Because we hold, it's a time capsule almost for them, right? The school is the same. They want you to be in that classroom.

Um, and that's not happening. That's not happening at all. So it's, it's definitely impacting so many like, groups of folks, um, this conversation or this [00:17:00] exodus of black educators and this long-term exodus first again with Brown. 'cause we were educating our own in our own buildings, right? And then now that we are in white spaces again, it's happening to push out on the pullout.

So, yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. And as you're talking about your student, I really like, it kind of just makes me think about how much hope folks have to like. A hope of like, oh, you moved back to Detroit and like maybe she's living her best life. Like,

Dr. Asia Lyons: yeah. This

Dr. Desa Daniel: like, 'cause there's, there's no, like, it's hard for people to not know what happens in the story.

And so people end up creating this positive narrative of like hopes and dreams of like what could have occurred. Mm-hmm. And that also I think further influences the invisibility and just the downplaying of the trauma happening in the space when you're like, oh, well, like Ms. Lyons left, but she's like in Detroit now, like living it [00:18:00] up.

She's an educator there, right? Yeah. So it's like you're still the same person they remember, but like the narrative is very different. Like, you left because, well you had influences to leave 'cause the space ended up being toxic in all these ways and like impacting you. Um, but it also seems like that that part of the story is missing.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. And I think this kind of goes back to the work of the podcast is because it's, there's so many of us where the narrative, that part is missing. There's kids all over this United States, all over the globe who are going back to their elementary, middle school, high school spaces, higher ed spaces, and looking for their educators, and they're not there.

Right? And so, but the children have to, as they get older, right, they have to understand this is what's happening in our society. Your teachers are being pushed out of spaces. We are not well. Right. Um, and yeah, that's why [00:19:00] I do the work that I do. So that's, my students, if they hopping upon my podcast, can hear the story of like, no, I didn't just choose to go off to, to Detroit.

Right. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's not like you just imagining this like, cloudy, wonderful place and I'm like living my best life, which I am in Denver, in the rural area, but it's not the way that they believe it to be. Right. So, yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. It also misses the intentionality, right? Like it's a conscious choice to say like, I love this work and I wanna do this work, but in this capacity, this work is not healthy for me or is not fulfilling me in those ways.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right? And

Dr. Desa Daniel: so, like the intentionality of leaving a space also, um, I think catches people off guard. Like this idea of like, well, why would you leave a perfect job? Well, you only see an outside, like you're only seeing. What I show you, you're not actually like experiencing the role or like the late nights or the [00:20:00] insane faculty meetings or like all of that stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, like you're, you have a limited time and space where you're having all these great experiences with me because it's the work I love to do, but that work isn't enough to sustain me in this space or sustain me long-term in this profession.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. And like how do you, not to say that you said we should, but like, how do you explain that to a sixth grader?

Right. Even if I would've talked to my 20-year-old student right there at the movies, like, this is what happened to me. Like, that's wildly, like, I wouldn't say inappropriate, but it's just at the, it's at the time to explain like, this is what happened to your educator and it may happen to you in your own place of work.

Right. So, but yeah, that's exactly right what you're saying. Yeah, I

agree

Dr. Desa Daniel: with that. Yeah. And I also think, right, like, and I'm not sure if this really like applies directly to racial battle fatigue, but in what we're seeing in like racial identity in these other spaces, there's a heavy learning curve for people to really [00:21:00] understand the impact of like the sits or the catchphrase.

Like, like I can't just be like, like you need to work on your racial identity and have people be like, okay, like at the movies, like, oh, that makes total sense to me. Like, yeah. And so I also think about that, right? Like there's an innate privilege in the work we do at this like higher intellectual level to really understand why these concepts are so detrimental to our everyday lives.

Um, but often, and I think like in your podcast often. Like everyday folks listening, like even people listening to this podcast right now don't have a full grasp of like what that actually looks like in their daily lives until they come across something like this and then they're like, oh, how do I dive in more?

Or, oh, like, Dr. Lyons experience sounds so similar to mine, and so I know what I'm experiencing is a reality. Like it's not something I, I made up. Like this is actually [00:22:00] real.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, when we interviewed Dr. Smith on our podcast, he talked about how he was, um, on a panel and he had stood up to explain racial battle fatigue, and the man next to him just started crying.

Mm-hmm. And was like on this panel because he could not believe that Dr. Smith had words for his experience. Right. And that's how I felt when I learned about racial battle fatigue, um, so many years ago. It's like, oh my God, there's a name for this. Mm-hmm. Like, it's not, I don't have to explain an entire situation.

Right. Yeah. I can, this is just sum it up as this is what this is. Um, and it is complex, but you do, you start to dig into it, read about it more, look it up, research, talk to people, um, and then you feel like, oh, I'm in community. Unfortunately, it's a community that's like couched in trauma, right? Like that's the, that's the, the seed of it.

Not to say that you stay in that traumatic place, but like, [00:23:00] we are bonding because of our trauma. But it's good to know like you're not alone. And it's, this term has been around this idea, this wording. Has been around for a very long time. Right. And that, and that in itself is comforting, I think, for a lot of people because then they can have an article to show their HR person or have an article to show other educators or whoever fill in the blank, HR P whatever show, like show them like, this is what I'm talking about.

Take a read to this. And for unfortunately, for many of us, it is someone else's work, someone else's article video that is a catalyst for the, like the mindset shift to other people. 'cause it's not you telling you them. The story is a Dr. Smith said so Right. Or such and such printed an article in New York Times.

And that makes it official when you've been experiencing that, you know it's real the whole time.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. I just think so much about like the power of [00:24:00] awareness.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Like. We have all of these experiences. And I think similar, like, and I'm not sure if I told you like, I hate talking about microaggressions 'cause I feel like we talk about them too much.

Like, 'cause it's like, okay, now what? Like what do we do? Yeah. After we know this like small little part of our experience. Um, and I think about this as well, like especially in racial battle fatigue. It's like, it's such an integral part of our experience, but it's not your whole experience and it doesn't define you as a person.

But then when someone like sees you, like the part of you that feels hidden, then you have this unique awareness to say, okay, like this is accurate. Um, and I think like you talked about with that man who started crying, 'cause it's like this is the first time I know this person sees me in space and context.

Um, but then I'm also right, like as an educator, but also a counselor, like what happens when they leave that [00:25:00] space? Like then what? Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: It's interesting that you said that because I was just talking earlier today with the group of, um, PhD applicants about like some of the now what's, and when Dr. Smith was on our podcast, he talked about a couple different things that he would suggest that folks do.

Um, one of them, he said was, pick your battles, right? Mm-hmm. So folks who are not going to leave a place, it's like, Hey, I got para, I have bills to pay. What? I don't wanna leave. This is, this is good for me. Um, picking your battles. He talked about, um, making your home, your space, a place of refuge from racial battle fatigue, right?

Mm-hmm. So if that means getting rid of some people, right? Or bringing in some folks to do that, to help. He also talked about like leaving traditional education spaces for spaces that are more black centered. I know in Denver we have, um. The BLM Freedom School is opening or trying to open here. Um, and I think [00:26:00] that Branch Lockett, the executive director, is really working hard to hire black educators, right?

So people have talked about that. So he has, he has some other suggestions, uh, um, about like how to circumvent that. I know when I ask people on a podcast like, what can school districts unions hire ed do to keep black educators? Something else that folks talk about is advocating for a wellness stipend, right?

That, and, and not just like three counseling appointments, but like five of this, or two, whatever your budget can afford. I think the hard part about that is that seems more plausible in higher ed than it does in K 12 or ECE 12, right? Um, at least, let me put, let me. Back that up. It feels like it is. I don't know if it is or not.

Right? I don't know what money districts have until they're spending it on random things or a million dollars came up missing. But like, there's just lots of different ways. And then like he said, he [00:27:00] talked about like this leave staying grounded to the earth. He talked about eating well, um, exercise, things like that.

So, um, but I think that's some what folks don't wanna hear is that like leaving the space. Mm-hmm. Like a lot of folks, I think in the beginning, they wanna like fight to the end. Like racial identity development. That's that space, right? Where it's like, we're gonna fight, we're gonna just keep on going and we, we burn out.

Right? I was just talking to someone about ABBA Elementary. Some of us need to be that kindergarten teacher where it's just like, hmm, honey, you better sit down. So where you gonna burn yourself out? Right. Versus that first year teacher who just comes in and tries to do, change the light bulb and try to fix the air conditioning.

Like all the things. Um, so yeah. And obviously all of this situ is situated in like family dynamics, right? Mm-hmm. And so a part of the research that I was doing was not just on racial battle fatigue of black educators, but how it impacted [00:28:00] the family, right? So a lot of us may wanna leave or do all whatever it is that Dr.

Smith suggested or people have an idea for, but it's not just us. A lot of us have grandparents, cousins, roommates, fill in the blank, pets that depend on us. So we can't just make a move in the ways that we would want to because it impacts us. That being said, when we talk about recruitment and retention at the, you know, in the, in the spaces where that conversation is happening, those folks at the table also need to be thinking about, I'm not just retaining one black educator, I'm retaining.

That person's family as well, because I'm impacting that person's family when they are not treated correctly. And if we start having more conversations about not just that individual person, but the family dynamics, the roommates, the places of worship, like all those around that person, I think that we would be able to have a [00:29:00] more humanistic conversation about retention of black educators.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah, it really makes me think. And, and you know, I love a good TikTok, um, but I was watching this TikTok where a black woman was talking about, um, how she never gives two week notice. Like, she's like, I would never give a company two week notice that wouldn't give me the same two weeks notice. Yeah. Like, they're gonna fire me, let me out, like lay me off literally within a day.

Or they're gonna give me like maybe like, tell me at the end of my shift or whatever. And so like, why am I on a Friday? Yeah. My favorite

Dr. Asia Lyons: on a Friday.

Dr. Desa Daniel: So like, why am I giving all of this grace and understanding to a company that doesn't give me back the same humanity? Um, yeah. And I was really wondering, and, and maybe you could speak to some of this, of like, I'm wondering if this has really changed with generations as well.

Like I very much love my job and most days I love [00:30:00] my job and I appreciate being an educator in all these ways. Um, but I'll be damned like, I'll put this job in a second. Right? So it's like, um, and also awareness of the privilege I have. To like have that mental freedom to just be like, this ain't for me.

I need to focus on me and figure it out. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I'm wondering if that's also changing because of generational change, but then also like what we're just seeing in community. Like I, I'm not,

Dr. Asia Lyons: go ahead. That's a good question. So for all those out here listening, I'm a millennial. I'm 40 years old.

Okay. Same. Yeah. So as far as like what the other generations are doing, I think Gen Z has definitely given gen like millennials, some more like empowerment to quit. I remember when I was teaching, I had never heard of people in my district like quitting midyear. [00:31:00] We finished off the semester and I did the same.

Like, I'm just gonna grit this out to the end of the school year 'cause my contract, blah, blah, blah. And you know, and I'll talk about this a little bit, like the contract, when I left teaching, I had to pay the district back money for my health insurance, like $2,000. Right. And some people don't wanna do that, which I get.

Um, but yeah, like the, like Gen Z has definitely taught us to like, just quit that job. It doesn't matter if you have a contract, if people are having you pull your hair out, can you disrespectfully get up and go now? So as far as like, when I listen to people's stories on the podcast of like how they left and when they left, I've had folks, yeah.

And to finish up the school year, I've had people quit the same day. I had a woman, um, who she said that like the night before God was like, it's time to go. And she just quit the next day. And so it's, it, it, it varies. People make that decision and they just leave [00:32:00] whenever they're ready. But I don't know if it's, yeah, I think Gen Z has definitely given us older generations more, um, more courage to do so.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Hmm. Yeah. And I, and I think it's well, right, and I think it's that generation, but I also, um, and like in my own experience, I just keep thinking about the impact of my mental health. Mm-hmm. And so I'm just like, is this four more months worth Yeah. My mental health like, or like what I might experience. And I think especially that, especially around racial battle fatigue, I'm just like, if you don't quit and then every day it's a reminder that you should have quit.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. No, like on this side of it, like what, 2018, we weren't having conversations about mental health the way we're having now. Yeah. The pandemic has definitely had us talking about that more. And again, like I said, when I was experiencing all that racial battle fatigue and [00:33:00] racism related stress, when I was teaching, there were, I didn't have the language Yeah.

To even say like, this is a pa. Like, I knew it was impacting my mental health, but it just wasn't all, it didn't come together in a clear picture. The Asia of 2018 and the Asia of 2023 are not the same person. Right? Yeah. And so, yeah, even in my consulting business, if people try to make moves or say things or act in a way, oh, I, this is it.

Today's my last day. Right. I'm not going to put up with that. Right. And I do understand it that this is my money, but you are, no, nothing's worth my mental health. But the, the, the, the 12 12th year educator back then did not have language for that.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, and something you said earlier, right?

Like also acknowledging the fact that not everyone can quit or people don't necessarily have, um, the financial mobility just to like jump ship or whatever you want, quiet, quitting, whatever we wanna Yeah. Call it. [00:34:00] Um, yeah. And something I talk often with my psycho-pharmacology students of like, how do we help our clients and people we work with see the long-term end goal?

So like, if the end goal is you not no longer being in K through 12 and you wanna instead be a consultant, then it's like, how do we lay out a plan where like, yeah, every year, like even if it's a one year plan or like a three year plan, like how do we lay out a plan where you're putting stuff in place that makes quitting more of an option for you, so you don't necessarily feel.

Kind of stuck or just mm-hmm. Like chained to your current circumstance. Um, and I know for me, and, and most of our listeners will really just connect with what you said about like, the Asia 2018 is very different than the person now. Mm-hmm. Um, and I often think of that as well. Like, I'm a completely night and day different person than I was even [00:35:00] last year, let alone four or five years ago.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Um, and I, I always tell people too, when you're thinking about leaving, but it can't be right away, start thinking about your current workplace as school. What can you gather? What information can you think about that you can take with you to your next step, whether that be entrepreneurship, another business, like whatever it is.

Like what can you say like, okay, that system works, or, oh, I love this thing, or, I'm gonna make sure to reach out to this person when I leave. Like, whatever that is, make sure that the time that you spend is spent, um, looking for opportunity, right? I think that's, that's the thing that I want to advise people on because it can be really easy to go into work every day and then let that racial battle fatigue keep you from living in your brilliance, right?

Because you're crying and because you are worrying, because you're [00:36:00] resentful, um, because you, um, aren't eating, you have tension headaches. You're not able to think about the creative ways in which you can show up for yourself in other ways. So, um, yeah, that's a big piece of it. Make the plan and, and work the plan out and don't have other people try to convince you not to leave.

Yeah. That's the thing too. I've seen that where folks like, oh, you gonna leave here this good job. Oh Lord, the good job, right? That's my boomer, that's my dad. Leave that good job, blah, blah, blah. And then they'll leave their, they'll leave like, oh, I have another opportunity somewhere else. Like, wait a minute, you told me three weeks ago or a month ago that I should stick in there and I got good benefits and I have para and I have health insurance, but you're leaving.

Right? So don't be in that place either, if you, so, um, listen to so many people that you don't listen to yourself and what you need.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. What, as you were talking, I was really thinking about kind of this like underlying theme of like, [00:37:00] don't let your current circumstance steal your. Beliefs and excitement for your future.

Like,

Dr. Asia Lyons: yeah,

Dr. Desa Daniel: don't love that. Don't let your current circumstance keep you from your act like your, your actual meant to be future. And I, and I think that's, well, I know that's one of the most detrimental things about racism and especially racial battle fatigue of like, people end up treating you a certain way for so long that it's really hard to not buy into the things people say about you.

You really have to be like, how do, how do I ground myself enough to know that this has nothing to do with who I am? People are treating me this way because I am a light, or I am. Mm-hmm. I am the example that they wish they were themselves. And so how do I take those skills [00:38:00] and those tools and move myself into the next level when everyone else is telling me that, like, I should feel grateful or lucky that I made it this far.

Dr. Asia Lyons: It's interesting that you say that because now working for myself, I've worked in with organizations who have hired former black educators, and you can see that they have not healed from their trauma. Oh yeah. And they show up in these ways that are so detrimental to the success of their current position.

Right. They're afraid to speak up or they don't wanna get in trouble, and they're always worried about someone being mad at them and they're just bringing, they're bleeding all over this new opportunity. Right. Um, and so that what you're saying is so real, and I would tell folks like, if, you know you've experienced fatigue, racial battle fatigue from the place that you're working in, or the last place you worked, get some support, get some therapy, because you just, being in a new [00:39:00] place is not a new year, new me, new me.

It's the same you at a new place. Yeah, that's right. Right. Whether that's a black leader or brown leader or whatever, you're, you're gonna still have some ways that you show up that you may not even recognize right away. Mm-hmm. That's gonna negatively impact your new job opportunity. So get the support that you need.

Right?

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. It's so much like, and I was, while I was in Australia, I was talking to one of, uh, my, my new friends and colleagues about this, um, because she was telling me that she had a new job opportunity to leave her like very bad circumstance. Mm-hmm. Um, and I remember just sitting with her and I was like, don't let.

The current trauma you're carrying, like follow you into a new experience of opportunity. Exactly. And just like, I was just like, just sit with that. Like you already are talking [00:40:00] yourself out of being a potential for this new opportunity because of what people in your current position that you don't even like are telling you about who you are as a person.

Right. So it's like, how do you, I was like, go to therapy, figure it out. Like, but work through it so that you don't end up being the reason your next opportunity doesn't work. Like you're gonna self-sabotage yourself.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: In, in like setting a situation where people will treat you the same way again

Dr. Asia Lyons: and then you'll be blaming them again and not seen that it was you.

Right, because these folks at this new opportunity do not know the people from your last job, right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, you're, you're exactly right. You're dead on with that. That's really important to, for people to think about. And what's interesting too is sometimes we let the people in our space prevent us from even applying for different places, let alone taking on the job and doing the job.

Well, just, just even thinking about applying or [00:41:00] updating our LinkedIn or whatever, because we have all these people in our head who've told us that we are not worthy. Our work is not good enough. We won't work fast enough, efficient enough, whatever white supremacy culture type things that they've said.

And so we believe that, right?

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. Or like right in, in, in my experience, like my advisor telling me that like, I would be lucky to get a job. And so it's like I applied to so many jobs and I was like. I had so many interviews, like I feel like by my like 18th interview, I was like, what am I doing? Like, I don't wanna live in the south.

I don't wanna live in T Like, right. Like, I know I don't wanna be in these spaces, but like, I let someone else convince me that I had to apply everywhere because I would be so lucky. Right. And so I think even that like the, the racism wrapped into this conversation of blackness of like, you would [00:42:00] be like, it would be your honor to like, have this opportunity.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yes, exactly. Rather than being like, just be so grateful. Just be grateful for anything.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. Versus of like, uh, like the honor is actually yours. Like, it's not, the Honor is yours. It's not mine. I don't need to apply to like, all of these places that I know I would not be happy in and I don't wanna work in because you may, you've tried to convince me that like.

I'm only worth the last opportunity people offer.

Dr. Asia Lyons: You know what's interesting that you say that? Because K 12, I cannot speak for higher ed, but K 12 has its own breed of that where I've run into teachers who will say like, I just teach third grade. No one's gonna want a third grade teacher to work with them outside of teaching.

Right? And so there, that is huge. I talk to people, women all the time, mostly women, uh, black women, brown women [00:43:00] who just cannot imagine that an organization would wanna work with them because, and I'm quoting here, all they taught was blank. Right? And so the system, not even just, obviously it's people, but the system as a whole communicates to educators, you, you need to be in this silo.

You're gonna teach this grade, maybe you'll move up to dean or assistant principal, and then maybe you'll be principal if we, if you get your teaching or your principal licensure, and this is what you're going to be shooting for, and you can't leave here because your bachelor's degree is in education and no one's gonna hire you.

Right. Look, he's been here. He tried to leave or she tried to leave. And it's just like that constant. And so I always tell folks like, if you, if you're in a space where you wanna leave, but you don't know what to do, especially in K 12, you need to think, consider going where the kids are. Right. Boys and Girls Club and Y Inc.

Or excuse me, uh, [00:44:00] girls Inc. Like all these other organizations, big Brother, big sister, that support and value educators. Mm-hmm. Right. Or do something completely different, go into real estate. But the point is you are worthy.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. It just, it makes me think so much of like. Like the stories of others, like, your story is not my story.

Period.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. And like,

Dr. Desa Daniel: but you also don't even have a clear understanding. Like just because other people said they tried to leave doesn't actually mean the same thing. You might define it as Right. And so like you really have to like work that out as well. Mm-hmm. And I think like as you're talking, two things came up for me is one, just the intersection of like, of race, but also gender of like, and I, and I have this so much with, with especially my psycho pharm students of like, you bringing so much to the table as a grad student.

Like you didn't, you didn't just like pop out of the womb yesterday and like go to grad school. Like [00:45:00] you have 25, 30, however old, however old you are. Experiences that got you to this room. In this space we share together for like these two hours. And so. It just blows my mind when there's like an undervaluing of what people can offer when I'm like, you weren't born yesterday.

Like, there's a reason you're in this work. There's a reason you wanna do this work. There's a reason it brought you to this, and so maybe it's now the realization that this isn't, this isn't where you wanna end up. But maybe it never was where you were supposed to end up. Like maybe this was just one more pathway onto like your next thing.

Or like, maybe this is one more experience.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Towards like your forever job or like the thing that lights your soul on fire. Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: People, it's interesting being raised by, um, boomers that what you're talking about is so [00:46:00] foreign to them and they've raised, I'm gonna speak to me, right? The grandma, millennial.

That that's not a, that's not a thing, that's not a conversation to say like, this is all the path. No, like, my dad worked for Ford Motor Company forever. The path was for a motor company. Right? And so you, there's this idea of now of this is just like you said, this is a stop along the way. That conversation has never happened before and it's so liberating.

And at the same time, we have to be careful of who we tell our dreams to. Because if you're telling that to people like the crabs in the barrel, they're going to um, they're going to crap on your dreams. Right? So sometimes you have to do it very low key and figure things out by yourself. I always talk about the movie shall change Redemption.

When he was like dropping the Stones, the whole movie, we didn't know this. He was like dropping small rocks into the courtyard for his escape. That's how we have to be sometimes. [00:47:00] We have to just slowly pick away and until we figure out how to get through the hole and dig through in the trenches to meet up with, uh, with our best friend at the tree.

Right. Do all the thing and go clean the boat. Don't. Right. So we can't share our dreams with everybody. People won't get it. Even if you tell 'em you're experiencing racism supposed to be like, me too. Just, just, just ignore it. Just show up to do your job. And it doesn't work like that for everybody.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah.

It's definitely something I'm learning as well. I've just like, and, and Right. Like I, I am very firm that my mother was a very different being as a whole. And that's where I get that like, maybe this isn't it. Or like, I could do anything I wanna do. I don't have to necessarily do this. Right. Um, but I also think especially just in the power of like, am amenity or, or like just the power of not just being discreet, but it, it's kind of like on social media especially like.[00:48:00]

More and more black women are talking about how, like they're not posting anything about their lives. Mm-hmm. Like, they'll be, like, they'll be full married for a year and then they'll be like, this is my boo. Yeah. And people are like, when did you start dating? They're like, oh, we're married now. Right. And so I, I think that's such a powerful, um, choice to make to, to keep the fulfillment in yourself to Yeah.

Not try to get any validation because it's, it may not go the way you think it's gonna go, even with your friends and family. Like, there may be a, like, why do you think you're better than us, kind of thing. Yeah. Um, and one of my favorite quotes ever is, um, like, don't tell your dreams to people who can't see your future.

And so it's like, don't. Tell something to someone who like is not gonna see it the way you [00:49:00] see it. Yeah. And I do think that's a lot of trail and error, but I think it comes back to what you said, um, in like talking on that podcast of like, how do we feed our souls as much as our bodies? Like how do we be very careful in what we bring into our space?

Or even like the energy, like how do we keep the energy in a way that you're still thriving, especially if your work environment is not supporting your long, your long-term aspirations.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a, and this is the thing too, for some of us, they have to keep that as that aspirations and that energy for years.

Mm-hmm. Right? It's not, yeah. Some of us are not gonna give two weeks. Some of us are gonna take tomorrow's the day and some of us have to keep that same momentum for years and it. It takes work, right? Yeah. Especially when you have all these other folks in your spaces that are, [00:50:00] um, there to protect you in some ways, but they, they give their opinion.

Things are happening at the school. Like all the things, it's not just like you're making decisions in a silo. Lots of dynamics are happening while you are experiencing, um, racism related stress, racial battle fatigue. Um, so yeah, the, that's the hard part is it could be for some of us we see Instagram, TikTok, I quit my job and now I sell, you know, they're laying in a pile of packages because they've opened this business business and overnight they're instance to success.

And that's not everybody's, everyone's story, which is why social media can be so dangerous for people who are trying to make moves like this. 'cause that's not reality for most people.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. And I also think, right, like as you're saying that it's so, it's not lost on me that most people have had a side hustle, or most people have had something working in the past.

Um, yeah, because especially as someone in academia, it's like, if I wanna leave my [00:51:00] institution, the last thing I wanna do is tell them that I'm leaving, right? Mm-hmm. Like I interview on the down low, I have conversations on the side, like, you don't wanna make your environment worse than it already is. And so it's like, what are you doing?

And in most cases, like what you see on social media is the end product of the years I've done

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right. To get that

Dr. Desa Daniel: business going. It's not just like it's a surprise to you, but it's not a surprise to like the work I've been doing long term.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. And it's sometimes it's not even just not telling your job, sometimes it's not telling like.

Anyone, right. Spouses included, whoever, because they just, they can't see the dream, right? Yeah. They can't imagine it. They're afraid for their own security, for their own health insurance, for their own, fill in the blank. Right. So, and that's, that's difficult for some folks. That has not been my experience, but I know some people who really take pause when they think about leaving education, um, in these [00:52:00] toxic workspaces because they're, there's some fear around their partner or their children or their parents having something to say about it.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. The, the power of fear will cement to us.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I was leaving and I made the decision and I was talking to my mentor and I was sitting, she was in a cubicle, um, in a different department. She had a bunch of stuff. She, she collected little knickknacks. And in her cubicle I was telling her like, I'm gonna leave.

This is it for me. And I just applied. I had actually been accepted to my doc program and she said, you should stay because getting a doctorate is really hard and you want something stable while you get your doctorate, so you should stay. And she's telling me this, I'll look over in the corner and there's a calendar on the wrong month, which is an indicator of her personality type.

And it said, everything you've ever wanted is on the other side of [00:53:00] fear. And then she was talking and I saw that. I'm like, uh, that, that's it. Like that's what I'm doing. I'm going forward. So again, people, my mentor, I had known her since my first day of teaching. This is my 12th year. I couldn't even tell her.

You see what I'm saying? So,

Dr. Desa Daniel: yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I also just think, right, like. How, um, like I was gr I'm grateful enough to be from a long line of mentors from Dr. Joe White. Um, but it, it's almost like, and something he said in, in a presentation I'll never forget is he was like, as a mentor, like my mentees are supposed to outshine me.

Like you are supposed to outgrow me. Period. Right? And so I also think of that, like this moment of realization for her to be like, oh, like I imagined my life with you in it, and now you're telling me that you're like moving on, right? Mm-hmm. I think it's also just a, a rude personal awakening to be like, oh, I'm [00:54:00] still in this, or I'm still here.

When people outside of me are chasing their dreams and not letting fear stop them. Mm-hmm. And so I do think it's almost like a mirror to the people around us of like, what are you gonna do? Like, why are you letting your dream slip away? If you

Dr. Asia Lyons: have those dreams. And it's interesting that you say that because there's been a, since I've left teaching, there's been a lot of relationships that I had to sever.

Mm-hmm. Or the person severed because they, it's just too hard. It's too hard for me to move forward and now I wanna talk to you every seven seconds about the district that we left. I don't wanna know or you don't want to see me successful. I guess all that is so real, right? Mm-hmm. And that's a part of it too, that people have to contend with is loss.

Yeah. Right? The mourning and the loss of like everything you knew. Because even folks who've left jobs know this. Even if you had a work best friend and that one person [00:55:00] leaves, you are never gonna be work best friends like that again. It just doesn't, 'cause you don't see them every, whatever the situation is, you don't see them every day.

Fill in the blank. And so people have to contend with that too, of that loss of relationships. That's really, really hard for some people to, to have to, to face that change that has to happen in order for you to move on to another part of your life.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. It's almost like we're having this underlying conversation of the power of grief, like mm-hmm.

I, I wonder what it's like to be in these positions and then like to grieve the idea that what you thought it was isn't what it is, right. So it's like, yeah, like what I thought this is and what I wanted it to be is nothing close. And so now I'm grieving this idea that I had about my current situation.

That's not accurate. But then also like the decision to leave, like there's a lot of grief over. Leaving your job, leaving your circumstance, especially if it was such a huge part of [00:56:00] your identity at one point. Yes. To be like, I'm an educator and this is what I was supposed to do, and now I'm like, being an educator is not what I imagined and now this job is not what I want and now I'm leaving.

But then also the community, then you're like also grieving that community. And so I could also see how, not just the fear, but the grieving process keeps people stuck in this like magical world of how things could be when things have not been that way for a very long time.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. When I was teaching and I started experiencing racial battle fatigue from my administrator and some of the educators in the space, I experienced grief because the relationship that I thought we had was not there.

Yeah. Right. And I just remember, now I have words for it, but I remember thinking like, well, who else is lying to me? What else is thinking about me this way? And I think that's the kicking of the racial battle fatigue. Then you become silent and angry and like [00:57:00] all these things because you are, some of it is the loss of people who genuinely appreciated you, but some of it's loss of perception of what you thought was a good relationship.

And I think that's worse because you're like, this person was in my corner, they stood da, da da, whatever. They brought me coffee to work. And then you realize like, no, they've been actually talking behind your back. Or they actually are racist or they're actually whatever the fill in the blank. Right. A sexist.

And that's really, really hard. And it's so sad and it happens. People try to avoid it, I think. But if you are moving towards your definition of success in life, you will not be able to stop the grieving process. You will always be mourning a loss of a relationship. It's just what it has to be.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. And and also, right, the, the.

It's like, it's the grief, but also it's the reevaluating of self. Like I, I also think, right, like [00:58:00] personally, like my personal identity is on the line. 'cause it's like, how did I allow this to happen?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right?

Dr. Desa Daniel: There's just so much personal responsibility on a situation that at the end of the day, like if you had known what it actually was, you never would've done that.

Right? Yes, yes. And so, and I think that's lost, like that belief, like that, that intermediate of Oh, like if I had actually know what this was like I know right now, then I never would've done this. Versus the like, how could I be so stupid to do this?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. And that rage too. I think I remember feeling some of that and being so angry.

Hmm. Like, how can you be so like thinking to myself, like, how can you be so naive to think X, Y, and Z? Right? Um, and it's just so hard, right? It's just so hard. Like try to recount the red flags and think back and, and you could just, like you said earlier, you could be stuck in a spiral of coulda. Should have.

Would've. Yeah. What [00:59:00] if I should have known? And then you don't end up going anywhere. You're kind of like, um, paralyzed, like you said, so. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. Um, so as we're talking, I'm really thinking, right again, you said earlier like this trauma bonding of like, we've had this experience together. We're all in the like, and especially having to sever relationships because the only thing you talk about is the trauma.

Mm-hmm. And so now in your work, like how do you move educators or like in your consulting, how do you move out of just this constant, like, let's stay. And the trauma towards like, let's do some work towards like a better opportunity. Like how do we move out of this space of trauma bonding into, I don't know, hopes, dreams, next steps.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. So just for your audience so they understand like what we are talking about, this particular work we're talking about. It [01:00:00] is the black educator wellness cohort that I co-facilitate is where I do this work specifically to support black educators. It is not everything that I do, but, um, regulated black educators who go out into supporting youth, then help regulate youth.

And I work mostly with youth serving organizations. Right. And so if I know that our black educators are leaving the field of teaching and they're gonna be looking for work in youth focused spaces, and I can support them to become, to, to move movement towards healing, that's. That's bringing me joy. So in the Black educator wellness cohort, we talk about healing from trauma.

We talk about strategies and we talk about talking to our families about it, and we just hold space. That's a big part of what we do, is we listen right to people's stories and it's a yes. And like what is your plan to going forward? What is your plan going forward? I have a, a [01:01:00] person, a participant in our group who every time we come together, she talks about like, and I said this to them and they said this, and I stood up and I said this, and I said, yeah, that's all great, but you have about 10 more years before you can retire, if not more.

Is your plan to constantly play whack-a-mole with every racist person that you come across? Because the reality is while you're doing all that, and then you go home and tell your husband about what this woman said to you and how you responded, you're shaving off all those minutes that you could be building a better relationship with your spouse.

So even if you're advocating for yourself in a space, they're still robbing you of your time with your family. And so that's part of the work that we do in the cohort is we talk about like, and now what, like you just said, like how do we cope? How do we decide what we're gonna do in our as our next steps?

Like what does that feel like? What does that look like? And you can see there's other people in this space that are experiencing the same thing. And we're all trying to move [01:02:00] towards like self-actualization, like how do we all support each other in doing that and not just sitting here and telling stories over and over again that are not taking us anywhere beyond our pain.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah, it's, um, I love that you said the now what? 'cause it's, it's like, I think we should copyright that because I talk something over with my students of, um, and even especially my undergrads, I'm like, it's like you get 30 minutes, like, so you get 30 minutes. Do you complain to be really mad to tell me all the things that are terrible?

All this stuff. Mm-hmm. Right? Like we, we get 30 minutes to fully process all the things you're most angry about, and then we're gonna pause, take a deep breath, and now what are you gonna do about it? Like now that you've had Right. Because I, I think we don't process enough, like people are trying to move on without processing.

And I, that just for me, keeps people stuck. So I'm like, take that 30 minutes, cry, kick, and scream, yell, curse the Lord, whatever you need to do. [01:03:00] Mm-hmm. And then now that you know what, you know, what are you gonna do now? Right? Like, there has to be a decision. And I, I love that you're doing that with your educators.

'cause I don't think people are making a decision enough like theyre Yeah. It, it's almost like they don't realize that no decision is a decision.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. It's only so much of complaining that we're gonna sit there in our group to, and do and listen to. Right. Be and, and when you ask that question, like, and, and now what?

Um, it puts an onus back on the educator. Mm-hmm. Right? Because if I let, if I just let you blow off steam and then we left the group, then it, it's still in the ball. The, the, it's still in the court on the, that side of the court of the other person in your mind. But when I say Uhuh, so what are you gonna do about that?

'cause you said that three months ago and last month in a month. Right. Then it's like now it's your responsibility to do something about your situation. Right. And [01:04:00] that's the place I want people to be in. Like you are more than capable of making a decision and moving towards your decision. So that's where we are in our, our cohort work is if you're gonna stay in teaching.

'cause we don't encourage people to leave education. That's not our goal of our wellness cohort. We, but if you're gonna stay in education, how are you going to set yourself up so that you are mentally healthy? If you are not going to stay, then what are you gonna do to get, to move on to the next part of your life?

But we're not gonna sit here and just complain for three or four hours, eat, lunch, get your, your gift card stipend and then go home. That is a no. That's not going to happen.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it is incredibly humbling because it's the reminder that if we're not careful, we will give our autonomy to someone else.

Like, oh, a hundred percent. Like if we're not careful, we'll give. Like the responsibility of our lives to someone else. Like, we'll, [01:05:00] we'll let someone else make all the decisions, but then we'll sit in a cycle of forever blaming ourselves for why isn't going well.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. I, it's interesting you say that because I, the same person I was just talking about, she was talking about one, some other situation and I said, why are you giving your power away?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Like, why are you giving your power away? And you could see in her face like this shift, and I don't think she had thought of it that way, right. That she has, first of all, that she has power, she has choice, and that she's chosen to give that power and that choice to someone else. Yeah.

Who sleeps well at night, who has a good relationship with their partner, who does all the things right. Say that again. Sleeps well at night with the smell of their plate. Yeah. Like, well, it's like no issues. Get her nails done. Whatever she does. Mm-hmm. You are giving all your power away. You're making that choice every day, consciously or unconsciously, doesn't [01:06:00] matter.

I'm pointing it out to her now. I was conscious. Right. So yeah. That's that's huge.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. It's definitely like, especially my experience this last semester in one of my classes of like really sitting in that and being like, um, like, you're not going to try to steal my humanity. Like, you're not going to Yeah.

Think for two seconds that you have control over how I move through this space. Um, and especially, right, like I, I'm a, uh, I guess I'm, I'm like middle millennial, um, but even telling my mentor, just telling him like, I will quit this job. Like, like these students are not going to one, think that they can determine what my humanity should look like because that's racism.

All on its own. Like, like, and then you're not gonna then tell me that it's my job to educate you on anti-blackness when you're actively trying to like, put me in this [01:07:00] box.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Desa Daniel: But then you're not gonna be upset when I'm like, we're not doing this.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Right. And I, and I think that it's that like the, I also think of how battle racial fatigue, how racial battle fatigue shows up when you're fighting back and like you're pushing back and setting those boundaries.

Yeah. That often, like, especially in my experience, the first few weeks after that were like even crazier Yeah. Than before the like boundary was put in place. But then after that it was like just a tapering off of like people seeing themselves and realizing that they're contributing to the racism that shows up in the space.

Right. And so I also think of that like how, like how do we encourage folks to like, stay the course?

Dr. Asia Lyons: How do we encourage, uh, the educator to stay the course?

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. So like [01:08:00] when, when you're like, this is a boundary, and then you're like, yeah, why? Like, why are we, like, why is the ship going out? Like, I think I told my colleagues like, I'm on the Titanic and it's going down.

Like, like how do you go down with the ship and like, not, not give in because you are worried about the, the stress.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. I think part of it, and Janet Stickman, who was the last guest on my podcast, talked about this. You, you gotta be ready. People who are going down with the ship are like, you're not gonna, you're not gonna, in the words of my grandma, you're not gonna make me crazy.

Folks who are doing that, they know they can, they're quitting tomorrow. Yeah. That's the piece. Folks who know, like, I don't, and where's in my grandma, I don't need this job. Those folks who are operating that way, they will say and do right. Um, because they know how to make a hustle. They know how to do, they could pull out their 4 0 1, they're gonna do what they're gonna have to [01:09:00] do.

Mm-hmm. So that's the piece. You have to, I think, and I can't speak for everyone, but for a lot of us, you have to come to this realization, like, I need to get my coins together. Mm-hmm. So that I can just checkmate up about a year. Right. Um, and if you don't have that, if you don't have this, like, come hell or high water, I'm leaving and they're gonna just keep on keeping on because the system will always win.

Right. I'm a firm believer in critical race theory and the permanence of racism. So Yeah. You, you have to, you have to make some decisions and one of those is. Be willing to leave immediately. Like when you done with this speech and you stand up on a desk and kick everything off, walk out of there. Right.

Or silently. Like I did one book at a time, one lamp at a time until the last day of school, and they just threw your ID in the garbage and peace out. They're like, oh, your room is so bare. You're like, I know. It's weird. Yeah. Strange. I'm just, you know, airing my classroom [01:10:00] out, just taking the curtains down to wash 'em.

That's all. Don't worry about it.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. And I, and I, and I, I do want, like, I very much honor how transparent you are and understanding that not everyone has the same hustle, that same decision. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that's why I'm so grateful for you. 'cause I'm that way. I'm like, I will burn myself down and all of you with me.

Like, I'm like, we're gonna mm-hmm. We're going down together. Um, and also right, like this acknowledgement that not everyone can do that. And not everyone has the mindset or the availability or whatever it may be.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, but we gonna have to have that mindset if we going to keep ourselves sane in this, this, uh, Trump America, I mean, so yeah,

Dr. Desa Daniel: that's a different

Dr. Asia Lyons: podcast.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Um, okay, so I always ask two last questions. So the first one is we're having this just amazing conversation about racial battle fatigue and the work you do in educators. Um, and so this is the Thoughtful Counselor [01:11:00] Podcast. And so in this space, how do counselors, school counselors, therapists, mental health providers support black educators through these experiences?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Well, the first thing is to believe them, right? A lot of us, when we are telling you a story, we're looking into your eyes to see if your facial expresses expressions change, to see if you believe what we're saying, right? And then if you have the capacity to support that person. With, I mean, if you know someone who's working in the field that they're working in and you can like, help, like introduce them so they can kind of leave that particular job or whatever.

I mean, that's a big piece of it. Helping them maybe rehearse, um, a role play, a conversation, hard conversation that they have to have with someone or someone's about what's happening in their, in their, um, workplace or at home. Like, I wanna tell my spouse that I'm quitting. Can we role play that [01:12:00] together?

Because I know he's gonna be very upset about this or she's gonna be very upset about the, or they are. So I think that's a piece too of like all the ways that they're asking you to support them. If it makes sense to do so, do so. But the first thing is, and I'm assuming if you're their, their counselor, that you understand race and racism and anti-racism and anti-blackness.

But if you do not, if somehow some magical way you do not believe their lived experience. Right. And then. Also at the same time, don't go straight away to trying to solve it. Right. Just kind of be there and sit in a silence too. Um, because some people need that. And I imagine if you're, even if you are a therapist who's black and you're the person that you're supporting is black, sometimes they're not sure.

Folks can be like unsure of like, this is my first time telling someone this, so I don't even know what to say. So if they're telling it to you, like [01:13:00] understand that's huge for people to share those experiences, right? And so that's, that's, those are my ideas.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. That was amazing. And, and the one thing I would add is right, like the sitting in silence, but if you for some reason don't know about these things, um, I think it's a call to action to learn like mm-hmm.

Your clients should not teach you about this stuff. Mm-hmm. You have to do your work around that to make sure that you're not further playing into or influencing the racial battle fatigue to begin with. Yeah, I

Dr. Asia Lyons: agree

Dr. Desa Daniel: a hundred percent. So my second question is, what is one thing that is important to you for students to know?

So either grad students or undergrad students, or any students listening to this, what's I important for, for you, for them to know

Dr. Asia Lyons: what's important for the grad students or students to know about racial battle fatigue specifically,

Dr. Desa Daniel: whatever you think. Whatever comes to mind.

Dr. Asia Lyons: [01:14:00] Um, uh, I would like them to understand that racial battle fatigue is real, racism related, stress is real.

Learn about it so that if you're supporting folks in your counseling spaces, that if they're unable to name it, that you can say like, this is called this. Right. Because for some people that's gonna just be everything that they needed is someone to put a name to their experience. So do some reading. Dr.

Smith has a few YouTube ch uh, videos. Not a lot, but do some reading on racial battle fatigue. Do some reading on racism related stress. Um, and when you're having conversations with, with people, remember that it's not just them, that you're also speaking to their family, right? Their, their roommate, their, the person that's supporting them, or people who are supporting them.

So when you're saying like, you should just do this or do that, remember, it's just not one person shifting around. It's their lived [01:15:00] experience. It's their histories. It's their pre their, their future selves that also are moving in this space and, and getting advice from you in this space. So, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Yeah. The power of community, we're not mm-hmm. We're a whole community. We're not just individuals in space. That's exactly right. Mm-hmm. I love that.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Thank you. Just so that was just amazing.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Um, thank you. So tell us what are you doing next? Where can we look for you? What projects do you have going on? What is the best way for us to stay connected to you?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, so you feel free if you have more questions or you wanna reach out or have me talk to your folks about racial battle fatigue and its impact on the workplace, not just teaching, but the workplace. You can reach out to me, um, on my email address, Asia a SIA at Lyons, L-Y-O-N-S educational consulting.com.

Also, I live on LinkedIn, like [01:16:00] literally, so you can reach out to me there. Um, the work that I'm doing, I'm working on right now is, like I said before, my, my work is supporting youth serving organizations. Right. And so our work, me and my team is curriculum and program development. It's coaching and it's onboarding system support.

And that coaching piece is what this is, right? Coaching folks that they bring their whole selves into the workspace, healthy whole selves. So yeah, that's what we do in our consulting firm. So, um, if you'd like to contact us and talk about what that looks like as far as us supporting your youth focused organization, we'd love to talk to you.

And yeah, that's about it.

Dr. Desa Daniel: I mean, that's enough. You're doing the most. Um, and I'm here for all of it. Uh, I'm not really here for the LinkedIn part because I'm terrible at that. Um, no, everything else. Oh my, I mean, I, I do like your stuff.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Thank you. And I, I forgot my podcast.

Dr. Desa Daniel: [01:17:00] Yes, I don't,

Dr. Asia Lyons: yes. And then I said this earlier, but my podcast, I co-host with Kevin Adams and our podcast is called the, the Exit Interview, a podcast for black educators.

And we're. Everywhere you can listen to music and podcasts. So yeah.

Dr. Desa Daniel: I love it so much. Thank you

Dr. Asia Lyons: for supporting me on my LinkedIn. I

Dr. Desa Daniel: mean, it all comes at once, but it's there. The support

Dr. Asia Lyons: is definitely there. Yeah, you gave me clumps of likes and I'm like, I'm here for the, like five likes in a row. I'm 90. I read something earlier today that something like 98% of people on LinkedIn don't actually post or comment.

They just read. And so now I'm like, oh, okay, cool. At least I know what's out there. Yeah,

Dr. Desa Daniel: I mean, I'm one of those people who reads and doesn't post, so

Dr. Asia Lyons: yeah, it's fine.

Dr. Desa Daniel: Thank you for affirming my lack of social media. Um, of course. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much to Dr. Asia Alliance for being with us today.

Again, this [01:18:00] is the Thoughtful Counselor Podcast. We're so grateful to have you, um, and we hope you keep the conversation going and, um, yeah. We'll see you, uh, in the next episode. Bye bye.

speaker: Thanks again for tuning into The Thoughtful Counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's division of Continuing and Professional studies. Learn more about the Thoughtful Counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept@paloaltou.edu slash concept.

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