Calling on Ancestral Wisdom with Dr. Jeanine L. Williams - Exit Interview Podcast

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dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: All right, folks. Walking back to the exit interview, a podcast for black educators. It's me, your host, Dr. Asia. And, um, you know, folks, this next guest when we met up, she said something to me. She said, I'm not even gonna give away what she's, what she's doing, what she's up to, but it's gonna be a treat to be, um, to listen and, and get a notebook for this one.

'cause we're talking about, of course, an exit interview, but some ancestral healing work. I'm really excited to hear and share this information with you all, so make sure that you're listening and ready to take notes. But before we get into all that, welcome to the show, Dr. Janine l Williams.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Hello. So excited to be here.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah, excited to have you. Finally, we got a chance to get on the calendar.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: the folks a little bit about yourself.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Oh my guess. Okay. So I'm Dr. [00:01:00] Janine l Williams. Right. I am, um, a retired educator. I worked in higher education for, um, 20 plus years. Um, as a professor, as a department chair. I also did, um, work as a consultant. I had my own consultant practice at that time. Um, have always been interested in education as a liberation, right?

So

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I'm a preacher's daughter too. So liberation theology and, um, empowerment and what that means in educational spaces, um, really always was big on literacy. Still a big on literacy and what it means to be literate and what it means to be able to stand firmly, um, in your own kind of, uh, linguistic repertoire and be able to use that even in academic spaces.

And

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: work has always been about empowerment, um, and diversity, equity, inclusion, all the things that, you know, people have tried to be [00:02:00] crazy about. Now. I've always been about that. I'm always gonna be about that.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Now, hold on, hold on. I'm sorry to cut you off, but folks who are listening to this on like Spotify or our podcast, if you not watching on YouTube, my girl just leaned up and gave us a full on like diversity, equity, and inclusion. Full chest. Yes. Continue. I,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes. Well, so that's it. I mean, that's me. And in the work that I do now as an ancestral medicine woman, which I know that will, um, get into deeply, is just a further extension of that. You know, as I was transitioning out of the education space, I was really thinking about what does empowerment look like?

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: something about being, knowing who you are, um, understanding your, your sovereignty, your power, being able to use what grows in this earth to sustain yourself and those you love. People can't take that from you. I

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: your education from you and they can't, oh wee baby.

But it's something different [00:03:00] when you can take care of your health,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and body with what grows from this earth. And so I'm gonna stop there.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah. 'cause you giving away the whole show.

Yeah. I'm loving this. And the ancestral medicine woman, like I said, when we connected, um, a while back, that's, I'm like, oh, I, I need, I need to have you share your wisdom with the audience. So this is such a treat. Um, so we'll jump into the first question. Tell us your education journey. How did you know that being in education was for you?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: It was something that I actually kind of fell into. Now, I will say that I have always loved school. School was a safe space for me. Um, I never much saw myself as, um, athletic or anything like that. And, but I was always smart. I

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you know, I could use my, I could use my brand. Being alone with my thoughts was always my favorite thing to do, still one of my favorite things to do.

And so education provided a good space for that. [00:04:00] I always, as a preacher started like I, I was always, uh, fascinated or drawn to, um, you know, church and just that expression that I got to see there. And so education. Allowed a space for me to exhibit or, you know, kind of flex some of my, um, identity, um, you know, in, in that space as a pro professor.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you know, I always used to say that, uh, you know, that, that that was my pulpit, my classroom was my pulpit, you know,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: that I did in the classroom was just as important as, um, the work that was being done in the church behind, you know, in the church pulpit. How did I know education was for me, I never set out to be an educator. As a matter of fact, if you. would, would offer me, oh, you should be a teacher. No, I shouldn't. You know, I mean, I was, that was not a, a, uh, something that was good for me. But when I was in college, I remember always [00:05:00] wondering why the students who looked like me, um, were always in the developmental classes, were

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: it just was always something there, you know?

And it wasn't that, um, they are, we are not smart. It just, I al I, and I didn't have the words for it, but I knew that there was a problem with representation. That, that we weren't getting our just due, that, that our ways of knowing, being in, doing, were not. Valued, honored, respected, and that's what I wanted to bring, um, to the space. Um, and so that's kind of how I fell into it. I was a peer counselor, um, for academic support, like an academic bridge program one summer while I was in college, and it just kind of went from there. My pathway was very different. I was a psychology major. I have, um, my master's in human development. Okay. I have a little friend here.

I don't know what this is about. I have a master's in human development, but I focused on like the psychology behind education, so things like

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: [00:06:00] Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: identity and all of

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Um, and then from there, worked in those academic support programs, academic bridge programs, which ultimately led me to get my, um, PhD in language literacy and culture. Um, and I selected reading because part of like these bridge programs is always a critical reading course or reading course. And I'm thinking like they know how to read, like what is this? What does this really mean? Um, and so that became a space to really interrogate this thing called literacy. Um, also things like language and, uh, make sense of the ways in which black folk, I'm just gonna say, you know, put out people who look like me.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: ways in which, um, in education spaces we are marginalized, seen as less than. Um, and it's not that we are less than, as a matter of fact, we're very capable, sometimes even more sophisticated.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: yeah, for sure.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: real. Um, but how we [00:07:00] present. does not align with what's, um, considered acceptable in those spaces.

And so, um, I just wanted to be an advocate and really kind of tear that down, um, in my own way, in the space that, that I had. So, yeah, that's, that's how I got into it. That's how I found my way. So it was kind of a, path. It wasn't a, I always knew I wanted to be an educator.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: it was, I always, I want justice and I

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Oh

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: how y'all treating us.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: yeah. There's so many. I feel like there's so many of us who go into education because we notice inequities as children, as high school students. Like why are these kids going this direction and these kids going this other direction? Or why can't my brother read and he's in third grade? Or like, why are these disciplinary actions happening to folks of color or students of color?

Um, and we decide to jump in there and [00:08:00] see what's going on.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Absolutely.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: I appreciate that. So

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: you a professor, tell us about that part of your journey. 'cause you said I was a professor. I did this, I moved up. I did. So we wanna hear about that as well.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yeah. So I started as like, I started teaching part-time, like when I was, um, over an academic, uh, academic bridge program. Part of what I had to do was also teach this developmental, um, reading course, which I knew nothing about. I was good at it, you know what I mean? I was terrible at it, to be honest with you, because I didn't know what I was doing and. Um, I was looking at it from a deficit perspective 'cause that's the way it was presented to me. And it I remember I was also, then I, so I continued to teach reading part-time. That kind of became my thing. Um, and in one of my part-time jobs, Dr. Elizabeth Peevy, she's an ancestor now, but shout out to Dr.

Peevy because she is the one who introduced me to Liberation Theology, Sima [00:09:00] Clark. I mean like, you know, all like, and really challenged the way in which I was teaching, um, reading course. Um, and she was a mentor to me. And then that led me, you know, just kind of on, I eventually got a full-time position at a community college teaching developmental reading.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Can you, can you back up a little bit and tell us what that conversation was like with her? Like what did she, how did she come to this like. Hey, I know you probably think that you are doing okay, or maybe you don't, but how, how did she have that conversation with you that got you to shift, um, the way that you were thinking about the work that you were doing?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I was frustrated. And I remember, um, Dr. PV at the time, she was a full-time faculty member at a, at a community college, and I remember just sharing my frustration, um, because as a, as a part-time instructor, like they gave us the, the material and I hated

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yes, yes.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and I felt like, [00:10:00] I'll do what you told me to do.

I'll, you know, I'll follow this curriculum, but it's not connecting. And so I was very, very frustrated and she, you know, I, and I just was sharing that with her. And she talked to me about the work that she had done with adult literacies and like Paula Fre Ri and that, um. And that I was very discouraged and I think I was thinking about, I need to do something else, or maybe I need to just work with people who were smarter.

I just, you know,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And she, I remember her saying, we gotta stay in here 'cause that's how she moved. We gotta stay in here. Um, because, you know, these are our babies, right? And, and we gotta pull out what, you know, we've gotta pull out what's already in them. This system don't pull out what's in them we need. So she just spoke life to me and

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you know, encouraged me to stay the course. Um, but a, a, Hey, hey, listen, we here for a reason and this is how we need to look at it. Here's [00:11:00] how we can pull out what it is that, you know, um, resonates with, with our babies. You know, that that's the way

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: it.

Yeah. So it was that, it was that, it was my frustration. And her, oh, feeling her. Ooh Lord. Feeling her, um, me home to myself. She wouldn't let me 'cause I was backing away and she was like, oh, not uh, Uhuh. Oh, no, no, no. These are babies. know? And just really giving me that

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Um, that beautiful and sacred call.

I feel like I'm about to get tears. I haven't thought about or wrote about Dr. PV until anyway, but anyway. So that was it. That's what she

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: what that was it because she was so smart and so ex like why was she at a community college? Right. You know, and again, 'cause that was my thinking. Like she could

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: She could be anywhere. But now I know why she wasn't there because she was too [00:12:00] smart

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: was too liberated, honey. And, you know, they, they don't know what to do with us when we that.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: That's okay. First of all, shout out to our ancestor, Dr. Pv, and what you just said was so brilliant of like, we do get into this. Why are you at this school?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: should be at a X, Y, Z. Like, you know, why community college, you could be at anywhere or why would you teach in this neighborhood? You could be anywhere.

And like you said, it's exactly because of the, the liberatory thinking that people have, that they need,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: they found a place to tuck back in

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: and do the work

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: and be essentially left alone to do that work. And I don't mean like in solitude, but like, let her do her thing. Let her right, let her call her people.

And I love that. Calling me back to myself.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah. Yeah. So you, you, thank you for sharing that, first of all. Um, and then, so you talk about that you went to a community college. So did you [00:13:00] go where she went or what was the situation with that?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: So I was at one community college working part-time, and then, um, something opened at another community college, and

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Cut.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: where I ultimately, um, got the, um, got the job. And I remember I applied for that job three times and twice got turned down. and I remember Dr. Peev, I'm remembering all of this now.

This is such a beautiful thing. Thank you, Dr. Peevy. I remember her telling me, stay encouraged. Mm-hmm. Like, don't matter. Go again, apply again. Go again. That job is yours. Like, you know, she, she wouldn't let me give up. Um, so even getting into that position was such a challenge, um, because I felt like I was constantly proving myself.

How I finally got the full-time job was they needed a full-time temp.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And it was like a one year appointment. And so I did that. So that's how I [00:14:00] got in. Um, and when it came time for them to convert that full-time job, I mean a temporary job into like a permanent, you know, they made me apply again and,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: I believe that.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and um, and interview again and do my mock lesson again.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I remember the day that I had that interview and had to do this mock lesson, I had taught four classes back to back. And I remember thinking to myself, I gotta do a mock lesson. Y'all could have followed me around all day to see that I know how to do this job. Um, y'all playing with me,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and um, but I went in there. You know how we do. I went in there and I took nothing for granted. I went in there and I sat up in their faces, like they didn't know me. Like, you know, like I haven't been doing this job all year.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: um, and, and I, and I did my best, so I got that. Yeah. So that's how I kind of got started. But there, it was, even just even trying to get in was so, [00:15:00] um, demoralizing.

I

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Sure.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: honest. But if it wasn't for Dr. Peeve, like, that's your job, you know,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and just kind of, again, calling me back to myself,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and, and helping me to remember.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah. I thank you for sharing that. And I know there are people who may be listening to this and thinking like, I, I've applied for that same job multiple times, or had to apply for my own job after year after year at a school or wherever they were. And like you said, it's so demoralizing. Like, you know, that I know how to do this job and better than anyone else, but just this like proving and showing over and over again.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes, Yeah. And I, and I al and, and yes. And there was always, I, I always felt like they wanted to break me. Right. You

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: like, that was the problem I wanna say [00:16:00] throughout my career was that I was too competent and too confident,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you know? And so, but I wanna like. So there was grief in, you know, um, being hazed in that way. But let me tell you where the gratitude comes in. Y'all ain't giving me nothing, which means you can't take nothing from me.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I am fully in my sovereignty. Like you, you didn't get me in. Like, no, I was fully qualified. I, you know, I mean, I fought and earned every bit of this. So once I was in that position, you can't, um, be trying to like, you know, rig me and roll me and all of that.

No, because this my job,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you know? So, yeah. So there's, it is like that conundrum. It's a blessing and a curse, right? That that competence and that confidence. Yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: And it's something interesting that, like Dr. PB said, like, it's your job, but that doesn't necessarily always mean that you're gonna just get a red [00:17:00] carpet to to that.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Right,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Right. And it's something to be said about that experience. Like what was it about that experience that helped to shape your whole experience going forward,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: helped you to see something very clearly that you wouldn't have seen without that experience.

And I don't want to make it seem like this was a good thing. 'cause that's, we don't want to start saying white supremacy culture is a blessing, but, and not even a but, and like this, Dr. Peepee saw it. She's, she lived it.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: sure she had to apply for lots of things multiple times or show up and, and, and the positions were hers when she.

When she did that third or fourth or fifth time. So I appreciate you sharing that. Um, how long were you at that school? Did you transfer or tell us more about that?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I was there for, um, eight years.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And then I got approached by university, a four year university. 'cause I had done, so in my eight years there, I had, [00:18:00] um, developed a model, an accelerated literacy model. So it it, you know, it used to be like the students would have to take developmental reading and developmental writing.

They had like three and four levels of that. So by the time they got to so-called college ready or you know, college level courses, a lot of them will have dropped out.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Sure.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: what I mean? It just was, it was, so we had an accelerated, um, or academic literacy program where we combined reading and writing.

Right. And so instead of students having like a pathway of three reading courses and three writing courses, we got it down to like one five credit course. Like let's just try this and let's see. Um. so that was very successful. Like, you know, I mean, and that, and, and that is the way that developmental reading and writing is done nationally now.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: that's just the way it's done. Um, but it wasn't that way, you know, at this kind of, these pioneering moments. And so this four year institution, they, [00:19:00] uh, were a open their open access institution and they wanted, they didn't know what to do with their developmental students and they wanted someone to come in, um, and really take the lead on first year writing, redesign it, you know, get the, make some, uh, recommendations and then redesign it and all of that. and so going back to this experience of basically having to like, cha cha, cha cha, you know what I mean? And perform.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Wait a minute. Not cha cha, cha cha. And, and again, the people on, on Spotify can't see that she threw her elbows up and did some little dance. Y'all are missing it if you're not on YouTube. But go ahead.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: So I went into the interview for this university, like I was very confident and very clear. what I'm suggesting for you. All right? And if you really want someone to come in and to rework this thing, this is what I'm suggesting, um, you know, this is the way to do it. This is what I'm gonna be able to promote.

And I remember at each point in my [00:20:00] interview, even talking to the dean, the panel and everything, I was very clear. I I'm not coming here if y'all gonna fight me. Okay? So I'm telling you, I've looked at what you need and I'm telling you this is what you need. I got the track record to prove it. I got the research data to back it up. Um, y'all called me, I don't need you. Like, let's just be clear. I'm not coming here to fight with folk. So if you offer me this job, no. Like Janine, Dr. Janine, Latoya Williams is coming in here in full force. If you don't want her leave, leave me be.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I'm good over here, you know? 'cause I had gone up through the ranks.

I had, you know, I was at the top of my game at the community college. Hard earned, you know, so to move somewhere else, don't think for one second I'm coming here to be fighting. Um, and fussing with y'all not doing it. And so they offered me the position, um, and was like, okay, let's come on in here, do it.

So [00:21:00] I will say there was a confidence that I had a sovereignty that I had developed through all of those experiences.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: was just going to say, 'cause you, the way you described your three interview, like all the beginnings and then like,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Right?

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: you having to be pulled by your baby hairs back to by Dr. Peev and now you're like, don't bother me if you're not gonna be serious about this work and that eight years that you needed to, like you said, come to yourself.

I love this. Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: that job was much bigger, um, at that job I had, um, at the, when I first started, I had 200 faculty under me. I was in charge of the, um, first year writing curriculum stateside, Europe and Asia. I mean, it was a big operation, so, yeah. Yes. I mean, so it was an amazing experience.

And then, so it was so many different things I had to navigate to even, um, create this new model and implement it. [00:22:00] And when I tell you I got there in December and by, and so like that fall, that spring semester, I took making sure it was together. And by fall we launched,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: like,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Urgent.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: that was, yes, even that was unheard of. But again, I had asked for the space, leave me alone and let me do this.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: so we got it done. I mean, and that was it. And I mean, and, and, and we moved forward. Now, there were points in the process while I was, you know, putting, all, putting the plan in place and all that where there were some who would start trying to push and, but confident Janine, Dr.

Williams, I would say, okay, so you told me that the babies need help with the writing.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Do they need it or not? Because I feel like you fighting me. And I would say it just like that, like, you know what I mean? Because y'all told me this is what you needed, this is what I'm doing. So did something change we need to pivot

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: otherwise I don't know why you here give me my [00:23:00] space.

And I mean, I meant that and I

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yes.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I meant that from my soul. You hear

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yes, yes.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you know, give me space. And I, and I remember at one point my supervisor, you are you, are you sure this is gonna work? I said to her, I'll bet my job on it. And she was like, oh, that's really confident. Yes. So

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and let me do it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: just showing, I showed up so different when I talked about that concept of sovereignty, like that embodiment of sovereignty. I meant it, I meant it. And they did give me my space. And we had a, you know, had a very successful, um, redesigned first year, um, writing curriculum, which is still in place, still in place.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: And what year was this that you started that?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: That was in 20, um, so I, I start December, 2016 is when I, um, took that job and I, so we launched it in fall of 2017. Yeah. So I took kind of that, that, um, spring semester in 2017 to really, you know, fine tune it, get to [00:24:00] build the courses, train the faculty, socialize the faculty. 'cause this was a very different way of, um, of doing things.

Um, but at the heart of the, like, you know, at the heart of even like the, the work that I did at the community college and, and the redesign for this course, it wasn't just, I mean, for this program, it wasn't just structural, but it was really how we approached teaching academic literacy in a way that pulled out, right.

The students. Um, natural abilities to read, write, and think and communicate critically, like that is natural. Like we don't have to keep putting up all these barriers. We don't have to make everything so technical. Um, in terms of, you know, with all these technical terms and all of this performance to where now the students are afraid of their own language and something that's very natural to them, we are not going to be, um, uh, um, you know, hazing students and oppressing students around their language.

Right. Because I understood at that point, when you're talking about [00:25:00] somebody's language, you're talking about somebody's mama.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Sure.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: because that our language is us. So how do we invite that into an academic space? How do we allow a student to move freely with that and add some things to their repertoire?

Okay. There's a certain way that academic settings, uh, expect us to present and, and, you know, and to use language. All right. We'll teach you that too, but you also can bring with you, you know, your full linguistic repertoire. So yeah, it was, um, it was interesting work. It was interesting times and, um, so I'm, I'm grateful for that space.

I'm grateful for the sovereignty that I had developed, and I know that, again, that is what, when I talk about Dr. PV calling me back to myself, that's what she was calling. She saw it. She knew it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: And I'm thinking about all the students who, because you're at the, you're in higher education at this point. This is, these are not high school students who are needing this support. [00:26:00] So all the students who were not giving the proper education in their K 12 experience,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Absolutely.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: they decided to bet on themselves to go back to school

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Absolutely.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: knowing for many of them that they were given the short end of the stick and your programming at the community college you were in and then moving on.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Your programming provided people the opportunity to learn what they needed to learn quickly so that they can go on

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: yes,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: and graduate from high, from, excuse me, from college. And that was the point.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Absolutely.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: and like I just, it's just coming to me that, and again, you had, I can imagine how many students across the globe have had a chance to have the opportunity be, and I'm just gonna keep going back to it because you applied three times.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Right. And that you didn't say like, this is a failure on me, or I'm not doing enough. That you had someone who was like, actually not like, let's get [00:27:00] this done. And like how much we need community when we're doing the hard work, even if we don't realize that we need community when we're doing the hard work.

And so, yeah. I just wanted to pause and say that for a moment. Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: So yeah, I'm very proud of those experiences and the I had to make an impact, an impact that I will never understand the full magnitude of.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: No. Yeah, you were there for how long?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I was there, say 2016 until I, was it almost eight years, 20, 24 is when I hung it up. Yeah. Was that eight years? I think I can, I think I was just a few more shy of my eight years. Lemme

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Eight is my number. What's

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Okay. Okay. Okay. Write that down somewhere.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: it was, yeah. My time in higher education needed [00:28:00] to come to an end.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah. And so what was the decision that helped you decide now be, let me ask you two questions. Was this the like official end? 'cause I'm gonna ask the next question, which is what helped you decide that it was time?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: To hang it up. I mean, 16 years of phenomenal work. How did you know like it's time to do something different?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: My sovereignty got too big, like, and, and I felt the, the system kind of, you know, comet caving in on me. And let's see, how can I even approach this? So being the department chair, um, you know, 'cause that's when I left the community college to go to the, um, to the university. I was, you know, I was the program director, which is the equivalent of like a department chair. [00:29:00] And I was, when the administration of the institution started shifting and, you know, we were being asked to do things that I didn't really professionally agree with, um, that I didn't feel like was right for a students. Um, I spoke up, you know what I mean? But it came a point where I got tired of fighting.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: and not that I was given up, it was like, yeah, y'all, y'all not about to wear me out. So I remember talking to my vice dean at the time, my supervisor, and I told her, I said, I'm about to, I got probably about two, maybe three semesters. I'm about to be a whole problem. I need you all to let me be, go back to being faculty and let's find somebody else to do this role. Um, and so we did, we, you know, they arranged that. Um, and as a faculty member, I just had, I could be, I had, I was a little, I was farther away from all the higher ups and all of that that was going on. so I was able to disconnect in some ways that were healthy for [00:30:00] me. Um, but um, I also was able to be more vocal, you

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: in ways that were healthy for me.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: um, I did that for about three years and, you know, just being a, a faculty member, um, and when they were making these changes and treating people any kinda way, and we sitting in faculty meetings, I was the one asking, okay, so what are we doing in terms of community care? You just sat here in this meeting and told us that you had to let five of our colleagues go out of nowhere.

Our head is spinning. What's up? How are

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: of us and why is this always happening? You know,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: yeah,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: on the Zoom call with, you know, the whole depart. I mean like the whole school, like, uh, you know, the whole school of, um, what were we, we weren't the school of, know, our school of and within the university saying, Hey, your silence isn't gonna save you. Speak up. 'cause you know, we would be on Zoom and people be quiet chatting me.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: of course.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: sharing your voice. And I said, and so I would say, I don't need your private messages. Speak up. Y'all aren't here. Private messaging me while I'm sp [00:31:00] go out on the limb with me. Right.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: yeah. And I just, I just got to a point where I got sick of begging to matter and certain things I can recall that were really pivotal.

It was around the time of, um. George Floyd. Um, and I remember we were in a meeting and they were thinking about whether the university, you know, we should put out a statement to our students. And there was ambient. Well, I don't know. And, you know, we don't wanna offend. And I remember asking, well, who will you offend by taking a stand against anti-blackness? You know? And I, I remember being, you know, and then no one had an answer for me.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Of course not.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: remem And so I got my, got off the call. I remember being, you know, all this was going on in the world. And I remember we getting on the, these meetings, these Zoom meetings, and people are talking about, oh, well what happened?

And how's everybody doing? And I remember I said, you know, I'm not doing well. Last night [00:32:00] at dinnertime, during Grace, my son couldn't pray for the food because he was so busy asking God to protect us so that people wouldn't kill us because we are black. So I just, I got real vocal in me, so I'm not gonna sit here and act like I'm okay.

I'm not. When January 6th was happening, we were on a call and, you know, the phone start going off and, and they're trying to have a business as usual. And I said, I won't stand sit on this call. I'm getting off, I'm getting off of here. This is craziness. And I got off the meeting. So yeah, I just got sick of begging to matter and I decided I was just gonna matter. I'm not begging you to see me, I'm just

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: I,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: be over here being me.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: I'm, so, I wrote that down. I got sick of begging to matter. Because that is just so, so powerful. Yeah. Yeah. This like begging for for you to see my humanity.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Right, right, right. That you're making decisions on whether or [00:33:00] not my humanity warrants a statement, oh, that's what we're doing. You don't deserve me. You don't deserve my brilliance, you don't deserve my presence. You don't deserve anything like that. I will con contribute to this community.

You are not my community. You have let me know that when it comes down to it, you don't have my back and you never will.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I'm not doing this with you. So I took a time of like deep rest where I was very disconnected. I didn't get on any meetings, oh, Jean, are gonna be working on DEI. You wanna, Nope, I'm not on no committees.

Nope, I don't want, I'm not reviewing nothing. I don't Y'all figure it out. And in that time, I mean, I really just sat with myself and it was grief. It was a lot of grief because I had given everything to hire and my whole identity.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah, I,

[00:34:00] I just, I had to, I had to pause for a second. I think about, um. This idea of grief. And I think, I think about how many folks have come on the show and talking about my own experience of realizing like, oh, the people I've been working with for X amount of years actually don't have my back. They're actually not here for all of us.

And then just the, I, have I been lying to myself that has it always been like this? And then like for me it was like this embarrassment at first of like, oh, I, they were playing in my face and I thought I was, I don't wanna say one of them. 'cause that's kind of No, absolutely not. But to at least see me as human and then to kind of sit in this space, like you said, of grief, of anger and sadness and resentment.

And so I totally can resonate with what you're saying. And yeah. And it's [00:35:00] like, how are y'all taking care of us? Right. And the, the call for community care. Um, and I also wanna say that there's folks in the K 12 and ECE 12 space who I think believe that being in higher education is the thing. Like, oh, when I get go back, get my doctorate, or I'm gonna blah, blah, blah, I'm going to teach at such such university and that's where I'm gonna be able to make change.

Or they'll respect me then. And you're not the first person who's worked in higher education who said absolutely not.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: not. No. It is different, but it's the same. Intentionally and persistently white supremacist, capitalistic, patriarchal system. You cannot, you'll never get a clean drink of water pouring into a cup made of mud. And that's what it is. It's a cup made of mud. It don't [00:36:00] matter. It, it, it will all, it is gonna give you the same thing over and over and over again.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm. So when you were going through this experience, you talked about your son, you talked about your family, did you like, what was the support that you were receiving from your community? Were you receiving support from your community, from your family as you were kind of in this last, like these moments of grief?

Grief before you left higher education?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: You know, so there was this point of sacred solitude. Like I just needed to, I, like, I needed to get my own bearings and just kind of be in my own space. But we did have, um, we had started this underground group at the university called The Justice Group. what we did, we met, um, we met every week and we would just talk about the goings on, and compare notes, you know, screenshotting crazy stuff and meetings and all that.

And then we started going to the press. So, so we were [00:37:00] like, okay, y'all ain't gonna pay us no attention. I know what I know what you will pay attention to. So we had writeups in the Chronicle of Higher Education. I mean, and so that was a small group.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: um, you know, it was, uh, myself, um. My a, uh, one of my colleagues, an Asian American colleague, and two Asian American colleagues, I should say, and then two, um, two white ladies, right? And that was care because we would talk about where we were with it, um, with everything that was going on. And when it came to do the heavy lifting, um, the white ladies, um, and I say that with so much. I mean, they, they are friends. Um, would do the heavy lifting. They would

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you can't do this part, me do it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: know, um, or, you know, they did not force us, uh, to [00:38:00] have to do that work of articulating how we were being assaulted. Like, I

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: have to do that. I didn't have to go plead and prove, uh, you know, um, they would do that work, you know, they would listen to what we said and what we needed, and we would come up with a plan, but they would do the heavy lifting.

So that, that was the care that got me through. And as a, I remember one of the conversations we had is, what would you be doing if you weren't doing this? And I remember saying I would get me, like, I would probably do like a coffee, have a coffee house, um, that's like also a bookstore. And we would do lectures and like, you know, literacy court, community literacy and all of that. And started dreaming. And that's where what I do now came out of that conversation. So that was my community care. So we were both, we were subversive, we were sticking it to 'em. Um. Oh, and they would be so frustrated when those articles would come out. [00:39:00] Um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yes. Yes.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: that. Um, but it was also a space for us to love on each other and, and, and, and let's think about something outside of this too. Let's

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: was so pivotal for me at that time. Oh,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Thank you.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Oh yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit if you, if you want a little bit about that sacred solitude too, that you mentioned?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: You know, yes. I, and I didn't know, I didn't know at the time what that meant. I just knew I needed, I needed quiet. I needed to, it was like I was in this, um, this free fall, but it was a slow, free fall. I couldn't, I couldn't get my grounding. I didn't, everything that I thought that I knew about my professional world. Um, about who I was. 'cause my identity was V [00:40:00] When I tell you my, it was no separating and you know, and I remember thinking, gosh, why can't I just let this be a job? That it just never was that for me. It

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: so I really needed to get quiet. Um, I was also thinking about how can I get out of this, right?

Because that's also something financially my life was very dependent on that job. Um, and I would just sit out on my deck and just And I remember one day I called on my you see her behind me? Yes. Right

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yes, I can. Yes, I can.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Harris. Um, my grandma Harris had to leave school in fifth grade 'cause she had to work the fields with her family, so she never finished.

But she, but she was always one that made sure we had education. And as a matter of fact, I'm Dr. Williams because I was the first grandbaby. She had sons then she had a bunch of grandsons and I brought the girls back. She was so [00:41:00] excited that my grandmama, she put aside in a certificate of deposit $2,000 for me when I was born.

So when I got to the point of going off to college, it had grown to maybe, like, I wanna say it was about maybe $10,000. It was a certificate of deposit and that was what I used to help pay for school. My grandmamma, I didn't know this part. She, her job, she worked in the laundry room at a hospital where she got paid, like per piece where that lady get $2,000 from. And, and where does she know, how does she know, let me put this aside. When I tell you I'm Dr. Williams because she had the forethought. So I remember sitting out on my deck and I said, grandma, I had never thought about calling on the answer. Like, that wasn't my sensibility at that time. And I just said, what did you know? Like, what? Tell me what you knew. Tell me what you knew [00:42:00] in order to make this way for me. Right. Um, she was a single mother, right? You know, which I've, I'm a, you know, I'm, I'm a divorced mother and, and situation is I'm a single mother, right? Of two boys, my father and his, so how all these ways, I'm like, how, what did you know?

You knew something. You felt something. I am me. I'm here in this moment because of you, I got my direction. So that, and, and little by little. What I do now, ancestors bom, which I'm sure we'll talk about some, is um, is that's how that was birthed. So that, that, that sacred solitude, like just questioning everything just realizing there has got to be someone who can give me some advice. There wasn't anyone in my physical reality. Oh. But there was someone in my ancestral reality, there was someone beyond who walked this way in her own way, looked [00:43:00] very different, but the, the issue, the crux of the issues were the same.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And, um, yeah. And she gave me instruction. I was, it was, and I remember when I got the instruction, I was like, yeah, that's my grandmom.

That's somebody that's, I don't know what that is 'cause that don't make no sense. But when I tell you I did what I was instructed to do and that is what allowed me to exit, right.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: listen, the, I just the way that our grandmothers and the washing clothes per being paid per piece.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: But you know what I also think about, I think about your grandma in that laundry room in the hospital with other black women in community and hopefully, and I don't know the situation, but I hope that.

They had time together and community to be [00:44:00] in that room cackling and enjoy and laughing and sharing wisdom and, and hope. And maybe she got the idea of the certificate of deposit from someone whose son went to school or daughter went to school for fight. Who knows? But that she had this place that was safe

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: for her to share and tell story.

Yeah. And $2,000 that is. Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Wow.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: That's a lot of money in 1978 for somebody getting paid by the piece. Where'd you even get? That's, listen, talk to most people now. They ain't got $2,000 fulltime, ed folk, PhD folk.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: There are so many people. I can't even, we'll be all day. Let me just pause. So, so we are going to get into. The embodiment of sovereignty, which you've mentioned a couple times. You're gonna get into the work that you're doing now, but I do want to wrap this particular part of your journey up and asking the question, [00:45:00] you were in a higher education for a good amount of time.

You saw folks come and go. You were in community with people, good folks who wanted to see you thrive. And just like your programming thrive and the students thrive. Thrive. And so looking back on your time and thinking about the black folks that came and went, whether they were professors or deans, deans or whatever they did, what do you think, and you've kind of shared this a little bit in the stories that you've been telling, but what do you think that higher education spaces can do to retain their, their black folks and their faculty and their staff?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I am pausing 'cause I know what to say, but I just need to make sure it's what I'm gonna say. I don't think it's anything that they can do. I think the system is done and it is crumbling. And, and that's, and that was part of my weaving, not to say, oh screw everybody and y'all can all, [00:46:00] but I knew that somebody has to go and birth like something else has to be built.

'cause this is not sustainable. And this is collapsing in on itself. The education system, like all of the systems in this country, are intentionally and persistently racist. White, you know, white supremacists, uh, capitalistic, patriarchal and, and built on exploitation. And after time, it's not sustainable.

And what we are watching is it collapse in on itself.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: So does that mean that no one's educated? No. We need to be thinking about what education looks like outside of that system. That system can't save us. The system can't be saved. It cannot be. Community care is going to save us. Standing in our sovereignty is going to save us coming home to ourselves.

That's what's going to save [00:47:00] us. That's the only thing that's going to save us envisioning something, something different and something better. That's what's gonna save us. What exactly does that look like? That's for us to decide. It is gonna save us tapping into that ancestral wisdom. What did they know? And what does that look? Okay, I can take that knowledge, take that wisdom, take that inspiration. does that look like now? That's it. So I, there's nothing that they can do to retain them and anybody staying is you have to swallow yourself. That is how the system is built. I, you know, and I, you know, and, and that's not even to sound doom and gloom, but I'm, I have just learned to call a thing, what a thing is, and to speak truth to power. So nothing, it's nothing they can do to retain [00:48:00] them.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. Woo.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you. Um, that being said, you've talked about Dr. Pv, you've talked about your grandmother, you've talked about your underground society, your group. Um, there are so many black folks who have taught us in some capacity, preschool, kindergarten in the neighborhood, higher ed,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: wherever. Are there black educators that you would like to shout out?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: I shout out, you know, I, I shout out Dr. Um, Phoebe, I, our mamas, our aunties, those who [00:49:00] didn't get the benefit, right. Using my air quotes here of a formal education. Ooh. But they knew so much and they know so much, and they shared their wisdom even from beyond. I used to have my degrees on the wall behind me. Now I have pictures of my ancestors, my grandmothers, and my great-grandmothers, and you know, and my mother and my great-great-grandmother because they are the ones. Anything that that I am is I, it's them. It's them. What they went through the foundation, they laid in the ways that they still live with in and through me. So that's who I wanna shout out. There's so many yes. Formal educators, yes. But when I think about what right now, actually who I've always been, oh, that's who has been, it's been [00:50:00] my, my grandmama who had the fifth grade education, who was my greatest teacher, and who I had to call on at 45 when I was trying to figure this thing out. My grandmama transitioned when I was 10. But guess what that wisdom was still, it was here just waiting for me to call on it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And so yeah, that's those, those are our educators who we need to start tapping back into. Big Mama and them.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: yeah, yeah. And this is a perfect transition because you're talking about the ancestors, you're talking about calling on the ancestral wisdom. You're talk, so you kind of talked about this earlier. What are you doing now?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: So what am I doing? Oh my goodness. I'm doing the most juicy, delicious thing. That's the most me. Um, so I am an ancestral medicine woman and, um, a spiritual healer. And so what does that mean? So I help people [00:51:00] reconnect ancestrally with that ancestral wisdom, that ancestral sensibility. I do that using plant medicine, so different herbal formulations and all of that. Um, and usually when you say plant medicine, people start automatically thinking psychedelics. No

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Sure.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: psychedelics. That's not my calling. I'm talking about teas, tinctures, herbal allies that help us find our way. So reconnecting with earth, reconnecting with spirit. Right. And so anything that we are being ailed by has a spiritual origin.

And not that, oh, you're sinful, so you're sick. No, no, no, not that. But just because we are spiritual beings, having a human experience, that is

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And tapping into spirit, ancestry is spirit. Tapping into all of that is the only way that we come back to ourselves and can find that kind of, that clarity and, and that way forward.

And so that's what I do. I hope space for, um, people, whether it's doing an energy reading, [00:52:00] um, creating a formula for them, um, yeah, just, you know, working in all of those different modalities, you know, um, sometimes laying of hands, like all being a seer, being annoyed, like truly, truly tapping in to who I've always been at my core.

If I think about it, I education was a safe space. Right to use those gifts or to, to, uh, fulfill that calling. But when education got too, too, too, too small for me, or, you know, the system got too small or, you know, um, I had to break free and here I am, right? And so standing fully in my sovereignty and helping others as they journey back to their own sovereignty. So that's

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: do now. Um, I love it. It feels so me like that, that's what I, that's what I knew to build,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you [00:53:00] know, thinking about. The system in which the, that I had, you know, invested so much in realizing, yeah, that's not gonna be here much longer in this way. It's not gonna save me, so what can I do?

And so I work with those who are still working in those systems because everybody didn't need to leave. You know what I mean? I feel like everybody has to find their way. I, so it's not to say that people who are still in the education system are so, are in No, they're called to be there. So what can I do

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: matriarch in, in my own right,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: As a midwife. Right. What can I do to support you as you find your way? And so that's, yeah. And, and being in the system, I couldn't do it there. I did everything I could in that space. It was time to be more free because I can say what needs to be said. 'cause I, I don't, them folks don't have a job to hold over my head.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: know, can't take nothing from me. You ain't giving me nothing. Right? And so [00:54:00] I can hold space in a way for those who still have to navigate and negotiate that system, you know, and, and how you, you know, so I, it, it, it can be both. And you are here. Your call to this space for whatever reason. This is your time to be in there.

But you don't have to go along. You can be supported, you can be yourself. You can come into your own sovereignty. You can be sovereign, right? You can be soul led. Like all of those things can happen in that space. And I, as an ancestral medicine woman, hold space and facilitate that process for people.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: I have a lot of questions, but I want to go back a little bit because you talked about being a midwife

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: and what a beautiful analogy. My sister. Shout out to Chyna Toliver, which she listens to my show. My sister does. She was a midwife for a long time and she lived with me for a little bit. And I remember her getting up at two o'clock in the morning or going to meet with the family and [00:55:00] advocating

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: saying like, no, they don't want an epidural.

Or, yes, they want this, or, and just like being right there as a like, like a foundational part of that birthing experience. And so when you talk about being a midwife, I love that analogy 'cause you're not, you're like coaching and supporting and ho and putting up boundaries for folks and letting folks in.

Right? And like you remember the, it's like you remember the plan that we set out to do. And before we got to the hard part,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: you said before we started pushing that you wanted X, Y, and Z. And so I'm here to make sure that you are able to still do that and the mindset you are in.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes, absolutely. Abso yes. Because again, when I realized that something new had to be birthed, well, who's gonna help us birth this thing? Right? How are we,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you know, like, yeah. Yes. And I believe. Oh, I believe that those who are, who still find themselves in the education sy in the spa, in [00:56:00] that education space, um, who are still holding a line, who are still advocating for those students like you are, you are needed, like you are called for this time.

You are equipped to be in that space, right? Because we need you there. And then we also need those of us who decide, okay, I'm going to not even jump ship. I'm going to kind of go out here and start preparing things and getting things ready for you and interceding for you. You know, um, uh, when it is time I'm gonna hold space for you.

When you need someone to just, uh, be present with you, right? To bear witness to your pain. I'm gonna be the Dr. Peaty to tell you Uhuh, that's your job. Or, you know what I mean? Or whatever it is. Whatever it is that you need. Yes. And so I definitely see, I feel that like, you know, that I am helping, you know, birthing that.

'cause it's something new and it's something beautiful. It just is.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm-hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: is. I will never lose hope on that ever. I don't care about they system, let it come. But we never, for us, we did what we needed to do within it. 'cause that's [00:57:00] what we do. Right.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: are. Yes. And so we need those of us who have found liberation in a way. Right. We found our way out to be getting, I'm getting something ready, I'm preparing something, you know, helping prepare. Um, as we, we create something new, something beautiful, something bigger, something ancestral. I'm excited about it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah. One of the things I'm thinking about, like you said, you're here for the people still doing the work, and I and I, you and I talked before the session this our interview today, and I really wanted you to be able to come on and talk to black educators about, you know, you said the teeth and the tinctures and different things that people can do.

Can you help? Can you walk us through some things that folks can do, black folks experiencing all of this, like trauma and trouble. What can they do to be, well, what would you suggest to [00:58:00] them? How can they show up as whole as possible? Like what do you have for them that you can advise them to do?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Um, the first thing that I would say is to know that you are whole, like, there's nothing, nothing outside of you that's gonna validate you, make you nothing. You are already whole. It's just coming back to that wholeness. And, and that is like, that's the thing. They distract us with proven ourself that we don't even realize.

I already am I'm using to prove something to you. I already am. Why am I doing this? But that's, that's the farce of, of white supremacy. Don't even get me started to have you proven that you are who they already know you are. So you, yeah. Knowing that you are already whole and starting to embody that, what does [00:59:00] that look like?

Stop giving everybody everything. What are you holding for yourself? How do you hold space for yourself? What's your morning ritual like? How do you connect with you? How do you get rooted and grounded in you daily, right? Um, and then be human. Say no, you know, we

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: black folks love we know how to make a way out of no way.

And we tend to make things look easy. Let some stuff fall apart. They cutting funding or they not giving you the resources. Stop making it all just happen anyway. 'cause you know what they say? Oh well yeah. See they didn't even need it. No. Let some stuff fall apart. Pull your energy back. Hold something for yourself.

You already hold, like they count on us to be in fear and to be over given and carrying on. Mm-hmm Mm. No fear release the fear like I, yes, and I know, I know that's [01:00:00] so hard 'cause we, I need this check

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Mm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: or I don't wanna let the students down. You can't be the only one caring for the students. Stop being complicit in your own exploitation. We gotta start speaking the truth. You want X, Y, and Z, but you have only resourced me for X. That's all you getting

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Period.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: feel bad about for the babies and

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: You know, but tho that's a different sensibility. But I'm gonna tell you, when you are spending time and wholeness and grounding yourself and knowing, and then also we get afraid that if we let the chips fall where they may, they may, that things are gonna fall apart.

They're not. that. That lacks scarcity. That's an illusion. It's an illusion. And I know folks feel weird about their ancestors, but let me tell you something, you ain't gotta believe in your ancestors. Your ancestors believe in you. So what [01:01:00] I'm gonna say is there is a whole spiritual realm, right, that holds us and carries us, that co-create with us.

You are not by yourself. You don't have to hold up the world. So whatever you may call it, right? Whatever your sensibility is, your spiritual sensibility, lean into that. Them babies got somebody protecting them too. God, you know what I mean? Like they have a whole spiritual team, just like so we sometimes feel like it's us. It's on us. We got to, and again, that is the farce

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Let that go. fear, they're mowing outside. There's

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: it's okay.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Okay?

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: I.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: fear. No fear. Transmute that into love. And even when we spend time in fear, whatever we focus on magnifies. So when we start worrying and we are carrying on, they count on us to worry. They count on us [01:02:00] to be fearful. That's how they control us. I know you have felt how they have turned the fear factor up.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: can't even escape it now. Yes you can. You better come on back to yourself. You're already whole. They keep trying to trick you outta your wholeness. Stop falling for it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And if you need herbal allies to help you with that, you know, um, things like Rosemary, I'm talking like the way that you even nurturing yourself. What are you cooking with? Use your kitchen herbs. You don't even need nothing fancy. Rosemary. Rosemary is the, that that connects with ancestral remembrance. Um, Rosemary is anti, um, antibacterial. Antiviral. Um, you know, I think of something like holy basil or, or tulsi. That is a herb that is a good tonic. Tonic. It helps us stay in balanced. Um, things like cilantro, you know what I mean? Like I, I'm talking everyday kitchen stuff that'll keep you clean, it'll clear [01:03:00] you out and, and help your, uh, mental pathways, um, your cycling and psychic and spiritual pathways to be open so that you can see that it'll clear up your intuition so that you can keep your head on a swivel and know what you need to do. You know? So how are we nurturing ourselves, right? Um, are you eating? Do you eat? Very simple thing. Practices that we do to care for ourselves in education we've been pulled out of 'cause we so busy during our lunch breaks or, you know, we are all, we just running in chaos. So coming back to wholeness, you already whole sitting with tea rituals, making yourself a cup of tea and say, I'm gonna sit here and I'm just gonna have it.

I don't care how long it takes, taking back your time. Taking back your time. When I think about our enslaved ancestors and the fact that they had no body, bodily, or [01:04:00] time, or, or time or very, very limited whatever, I mean, they make it this, and here we are as pulled and tight as we feel we have that go on and take your time. Stop rushing. Sit with, sit with them or sit for them and see how you come back to your and see what resonates and see how your intuition will open up and see how, I mean, things will just start making sense and your, your path will just be made clear for you. But you're already whole now. That, that was straight from that. That was from beyond. Yes. That was Janine. But yeah, that was. Uh, listen, that's your, that's your big mama talking. That's auntie and them, right? That's, those are our forefathers that, you know, the, and that's, what I know. That's what runs through our veins. That's who we [01:05:00] are. That's who we are.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah, that's who we are. So in this last, like you've talked so much ab, like again, coming back to your wholeness, remembering who you are, taking care of yourself,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: the everyday things, eating, drinking, water, stuff like that. So that being said, for you, what does it mean to be well?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: to be operating in the fullest expression of my power and sovereignty, that's what it is. knowing, knowing that I don't lack anything. Remembering that there is nothing outside of me. Everything I need, I already am. It is just coming back to that, this, to me, so if anything is out of balance [01:06:00] my physical body, I'm whole and how do I, come on, get back to that balance, Janine, my, the body is designed to heal itself, to

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: period.

It's designed that way. How can I work with that instead of working against it? So that's wellness for me. Just being fully in my power and my sovereignty to always be expanding, feeling expansive. Like that's usually my test of anything. If, if this good for me, do I feel like I'm shrinking and swallowing myself or am I contracting right?

Everything should be more, more bigger, bigger, expansive, expansive.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: And overflow. Right. Giving from that space, existing from that space, being in that space, oh, that's wellness to me. At its core, that is wellness to me. Mm-hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Hmm. Thank you so much. [01:07:00] And if people want to work with you, wanna connect with you, can you tell us again the name of your business? How they can find you, where they can find you, so that we can spread this and we can take care of ourselves?

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: So my business is Ancestors bosom, that's the name of it. And I came up with that name because I thought of all of the love and knowledge and wisdom that the ancestors hold within Indian bosom. I also thought about when they would give you a big hug and pull you into their bosom, is that it is a coming home to all of that and reclaiming and reconnecting with all of that. Um, ancestors bosom.com is, um, is the website I offer free consultations. Maybe you don't even know where to begin, what you need from me. I do free consultations, I do custom formulas. Um, I have one-on-one containers for those who want to, you know, a journey. Um, back to wholeness, um, spirit, mind, and Body. I always start with spirit. [01:08:00] when we can get the spirit aligned, the mind gets aligned and the body always follows like, so.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: there's that. Um, you can find me on Instagram, um, at ancestors bosom. Um, I'm on LinkedIn, ancestors bom Jenny Williams. So, um, but the best place is probably my website 'cause you can click and get right on my calendar and you can see what I offer as well.

You know, see what my offerings are, um, learn more about me and just connect. But I love to hold space. Like that's something I love to do. And so I know sometimes people are like, oh, I don't know. I don't wanna bother. No. Come. 'cause even if we just sit for that free 20 minutes, you'll leave different,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: you'll know something, you'll be more connected. Um, and so I love to hold space, especially for educators, black educators. Yes. Come on home, ancestors, bosom is waiting for you.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Thank you so much Dr. Janine.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: Yes,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: This has been a blessing, folks. [01:09:00] Um, I hope that you all took something away from this. My notebook is full.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: So many good, beautiful nuggets I've received from this. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for your time.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Um, folks connect with Dr. Janine. She's doing great work. She's supporting community.

Um, and like you, like she said, 20 minutes free, it couldn't hurt. And you've already got an sample from this podcast episode of what she could bring to your life. So,

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: yes,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: um, we just thank you so much for coming to the show and, um, you have a great rest of your day. And folks, take care of yourself. Eat your food, drink your water, and we'll see you next time.

jeanine-l--williams--phd--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_141043: absolutely. Thank you so much, Dr. Asia. It's been a

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_10-29-2025_121043: Yeah, same. Peace.

[01:10:00]

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