Back to School with Dr. Asia and Kev

Kevin Adams: Welcome to The Exit Interview. People probably might not know your voice on this podcast. People are like, what?

Gerardo Munoz: Who is that talking? I thought I was... Wait, I thought this was The Exit Interview. Where's Dr. Asia Lyons? Here I am.

Well, I got news for you everybody. They are right here. Yes. Yo, what's up people? Hey, y'all do it. Hey. So, uh, you may be extremely confused if you are one of our regular exit interview listeners. Um, [00:02:00] we are on the eve of the 22, 23 school year. We know some of you have already started shout out. May the odds be ever in your favor as you reenter classrooms.

and schools and your buildings and, um, and, you know, live in that amazing life. So what we decided to do, um, for this, um, for this episode of the exit interview is I, Gerardo Munoz, your 2021 Colorado Teacher of the Year, um, and former classroom teacher, um, I'm going to be conducting an interview with Dr.

Asia Lyons and with Kevin Adams. This was such a great idea. Yes. Yes. I think it's a good idea. So, um, so Asia, let's talk a little bit. Like if, if y'all could maybe, um, just share with the audience a little bit about why we all decided to take this approach this time. Um, that way they can kind of, we can give them a little roadmap as to what, uh, what they're about to hear.[00:03:00]

Yeah, sure.

Dr. Asia Lyons: So I think we had last summer, we had a chance to talk and do the read the mixtape. Right. And so we didn't do that this this summer, but I think that Kevin and I have had lots of conversations. And you to G right. After we finish wrapping up to say like that was really dope or let's talk about that more somewhere else.

And like this is a somewhere else, right? So just kind of collecting some of our data from folks and what we've heard and what we've been thinking about. And just, this is a time for us to reflect as a crew about like what we find really interesting about these conversations. What's really important, what has not been solved and some things that maybe have been solved since we've talked to so many folks.

Kevin Adams: Yeah, like our takeaways, right? Like, what do we take away? What, what, what have we learned from these interviews? Because I think there's a lot to learn. And you know, what, what trends are we noticing as we, as we go through these interviews [00:04:00] and the commonalities when it comes to, uh, black educators exiting.

The classroom.

Gerardo Munoz: Yeah, I think this is good. And I think, um, and I think it's it's just great because I think, as you both know, when you are kind of neck deep in the work from. You know, from your perspective. So Kevin, as a classroom teacher, um, a forever classroom teacher, apparently, uh, we'll get to that part later on.

Yeah, let's do that. Um, we'll get to that part later on, but, but sort of where you are processing this work, Kevin, as a, as a classroom teacher and where Dr. Lyons, where Asia, you are talking. Um from your perspective as a researcher and a scholar in this area and you know, I I just have to make sure i'm gonna Be saying dr.

Lyons the whole time or dr. Asia. Dr. Asia. Dr. Lyons that and it's beautiful. You have matriculated and[00:05:00]

Dr. Asia Lyons: I was in the front row. So they played that song the whole time. And when it went for like four loops. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Munoz: Keep playing it. Well, let's, uh, let's dive right in. Um, because I think that this is a question. Um, Actually, I wish I could say this was a question on so many people's minds in education, but it is not.

This is a question that should be on the minds of everyone in education. So in the midst of this crisis in staffing that is looming over our schools, um, what is you all's perspective? On the state of black educators today, right now, the eve of the 2022 2023 school year. If you could sort of sum up in general terms, where we at, Kevin, you want to go first, I'll go first

Kevin Adams: cover boy.

I mean, stop it. Based

Gerardo Munoz: based on way hold on my interrupt real quick so I'm not a union member [00:06:00] anymore but Um, but Kevin was on the cover of NEA today for August of 2022, and, um, we are getting all kinds of fan mail, uh, fan messages, people so excited, um, so anyway, so Kevin, take it away.

Kevin Adams: I mean, to be honest, the state of black educators right now.

I'd say it's pretty dire. I don't think it looks good. Um, I think based on on what I've seen, the trends that I've seen, the interviews that we've done, um, I don't, I don't, I don't really know. And I think we'll, we'll probably talk more about this, but I don't know how much Uh, this system can, can do to help black educators stay

Gerardo Munoz: in the classroom.

Kevin Adams: You know, I, I think I've based on the stories that I've heard in my recent experiences on the bargaining team, [00:07:00] um, in

Gerardo Munoz: my school district,

Kevin Adams: um, as we negotiate our master con or, our, um, main agreement. Uh, I, I don't see I don't envision a future where people are willing to do or make radical changes that will be the things that are going to deal with the issues that we have heard about throughout the exit interview, Asia, your thoughts.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, I have to agree. I don't think, and, and our, our whole, our, um, guests, excuse me, have said it so many times. We asked the question, what do you think that unions and, um, school districts can do to keep black educators in classrooms? And folks have said over and over again, nothing. And almost like laughing when they say it, like it's, it's just not going to happen.

And if folks did have ideas, it's not like the unions or school districts or whoever makes these decisions. Yeah. It's going to do anything about it or actually follow some of these directions. So yeah, I'm not seeing, I'm not seeing this like [00:08:00] now no longer a slow leak, but just flood of black educators leaving.

I'm not seeing that ending anytime soon. I think I said this before we started recording that, you know, I interviewed five black educators and their families for my research. And now those five black educators, when I go back and check on those folks out of five, three of them are still teaching. And two of them have left.

Right. So, and this was, I interviewed them maybe like January. Right. And I could be more as the time goes on. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, and folks are doing other things. They're totally out of teaching altogether. Some folks have chose to do like teacher coaching and a consulting space. So still with youth, but in a different capacity, but just, I don't foresee it.

Um, I don't foresee it being fixed anytime soon.

Gerardo Munoz: So, uh, in a word, it makes me think of, uh, Tampa Bay Buccaneers coach rain Morris a few years ago. They asked him about his team's poor performance and he goes It's not very good and yeah, so [00:09:00] I think what we would say here is that the situation is not very good.

Um, we, you have, you both and I in my capacity as producer, um, I get to kind of be the fly on the wall or the fly behind the zoom camera, um, that is listening and trying to process and make sense of what is being shared. Um, one of the threads that has happened is that it's the same story. Right. It's the same story when we have these issues of black teacher attrition.

What's that story? Oh,

Dr. Asia Lyons: well, you know, it's, it's the pain, right? It's, it's the silence. It's the, um, welcoming the black educator specifically. We'll talk about this probably a little bit more, but specifically black women's experience on our podcast of like feeling welcomed and feeling good about the space and that slowly changing over time.

Right. Folks who said like they started committees and DI things [00:10:00] and done the work and work with kids. And then people are telling them, Oh, just be honest with me. If you see me doing something, call me out, then they get, they call them out and then it's silence. Right. Or policies and procedures are just nitpicking and all these things.

So that constant, you know, and it just goes on and on and on. Yeah.

Kevin Adams: Yeah. I mean, I, I, you hit it right on the head, uh, Asia that it's definitely that, um, common experience. I think where, where people come in and in particular black women, did they feel good? They're ready to do the work. They're excited.

They've been working, you know, wanting to be educators throughout their lives, and they come in and then, and then they begin to advocate or push back, right? You know, and, and for whatever reason, there's always things that cause them to see, start to see the inequities, whether it's, Like they become very blatant or the [00:11:00] inequities come against them.

Right. But and then it's always followed by this exact same thing. Oh, now you're aggressive. Now you're the problem. Now you don't work well with people. You don't, you're not good for staff morale. You know, and I think that has been one of the most interesting trends. That I have seen

Gerardo Munoz: in our exit interviews and into that point.

Um, I think, you know, that makes me think of early interviews that you all conducted with Saterra and with Annalise who, you know, and particularly Saterra, a big part of her story that really stuck with me, was it how there were principles like bidding for her, like, begging her to come to their school.

And, and I think the manner with which that dynamic turned on a dime and, um, and just got toxic, right. From the perspective. And so that, so that's kind of, you know, sort of, as [00:12:00] I think back on the interviews. that, that I've produced and put together, uh, with you all, those kind of come to mind. What were you going to say, Asia?

Dr. Asia Lyons: I was just thinking about this, this particular season. We've had folks, we've had administrators being interviewed, um, on our show. And we also had someone who, uh, shout out to Stacey Brandon and Dr. Patterson. Stacey Brandon, uh, was executive director, whatever the title was, for DEI, for her school district.

Right. And so so many folks say, well, if, if I just get my principal licensure, then I'm going to be a principal and change things around. Or if I'm just due to it. And it's, and those two interviews alone will let you know, and if you have not heard them, please go back and listen. It's not about just, it's, it's beyond this power.

Right. If I just move up, if I have more power, right. It's really about. The systemic right so you, you can be have all these licenses, you can have a doctorate you can have these things, and it does [00:13:00] not change the narrative black educators at an all capacities. Right and Dr. Excuse me Stacey Brennan was a social worker she wasn't an education as a teacher, not the same experience.

Kevin Adams: Yeah, yep. It goes back to this idea of white supremacy that no matter what. Right. No matter what you achieve, what you accomplish, they will take it away whenever they need to. Right. And, and, and they will, and then you will just be another black educator. Who's part of the problem. Right. Who does it and they'll play us against each other.

Right. And I'm talking about black educators that play us against each other. Right. And I feel like I've experienced some of this recently, you know, where, where it's like, well, this is what, uh, you know, is best for black students and if black educators are asking for this, then they maybe don't value black students and the needs of black students.

Right.

Gerardo Munoz: Amazing. And, and, and, and

Kevin Adams: [00:14:00] it's, it's like, wait, just because I asked for my needs to be met. Means that I don't value the needs of black students. What's the goal is? And this is where we go back to the bigger question. Can any be anything? Are they willing to do anything? It doesn't seem it doesn't from my perspective, it doesn't feel like they're willing to do

Gerardo Munoz: anything.

Let some let let's Let's put a pin in that because that's how I want us to sort of conclude a little bit because I think that will be a really big question. So, spoiler alert, Kevin is skeptical.

Kevin Adams: Right! Even though I'm going to do this forever. No, because I love this job and love it. We're gonna,

Gerardo Munoz: we'll talk about that too.

But, but I think so. So just to, so we'll, we'll come to that in a second. Um, one of the things that, things that kind of springs to mind for me too, and Asia, when you talked about the systemic, uh, reality that oppresses and, um, kicks out black educators. Um, the thing that kind of comes to mind [00:15:00] for me is that systems are.

Held by people, right? So, the system can't just live on itself, that it has to have individuals making choices daily, whether they're gonna uphold it or not. And it may be like, little tiny choices, like you see a tense... A tense exchange happening and you just kind of put your head down at your cubicle and say, Oh, I'm not going to get involved in that.

Um, and it could be really major things like what happens with, you know, you talked about Dr. Patterson, I think back to Darlene, Dr. Darlene Sampson and, um, you know, people who were elevated specifically to do this work. One thing that also came out and all three of us notice is credit to us. virtue signaling for all of us, right?

Especially me and Kev as cis hetero dudes. Um, so one, one, um, one thing that really has, uh, emerged is that for the most part, the experiences of black women educators. A little bit [00:16:00] different from the experiences of some black male educators. And one thing I'm going to say, because it's a weird thing for a not black person to say on a podcast, but, um, but I do want to sort of, you know, Asia, you suggested an intersectional lens on this.

Do you want to speak to

Dr. Asia Lyons: this? Yeah. So we've interviewed only two black men in our three, three, three,

Gerardo Munoz: because there was There was Michael, Michael, Michael,

Dr. Asia Lyons: Kevin, Kevin, but he's kind of like, he's, yeah, I'm on the,

Gerardo Munoz: I'm on the, I'm on the folks. Yeah. Do this

Dr. Asia Lyons: forever, forever, forever. Three black men on the show.

And out of those three black men, two of them really had this, they share the experience of like. It not being so bad. And they chose to leave and they've had like great experiences with their administrators and like all this support and it was their cho and it was just like this, it's not racial battle fatigue.

It was a calling, it was a time for [00:17:00] them. It was a calling. It was a calling. It was time for them to go. They got a better job or they decided to, um, go into consulting or decided to move into higher ed or decided to whatever. Yeah. Um, and they was just like. Not like I said before, not the experience of the black when we've interviewed.

And so I really want to think about more and maybe as time goes on, we'll have more data around this. And I've said data twice and now I'm a super nerd in this one episode. She's

Gerardo Munoz: know data now information. Right.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Qualitative data about, well, you have to really, I

Gerardo Munoz: mean, you have to like, whether it's longitudinal or, you know.

Anyway,

Dr. Asia Lyons: go ahead. Longitudinal data. Yeah. Over the time. Yeah. And so you

Kevin Adams: stop it. Stop making fun of your people. . Yeah, it's exactly

Gerardo Munoz: my crew, right? Kevin? You have to remember Kevin, like academic, there's no coincidence that academic also means irrelevant. Irrelevant

Dr. Asia Lyons: facts. It's like, anyway, that's true. But yeah.

Except for the black women. Like black women. Thank you. Black women. Our experience in education [00:18:00] from what we've seen and we've heard on this podcast seems to be far worse. Then our male guests, and I'm not saying I'm being very careful not to have a wide sweeping right. But it's just, it really has seemed like when we interviewed except for Michael really talked about him having a hellish experience when he was teaching, but our other two folks just seemed like it was just not a problem for them.

And so it makes me wonder a couple things one, like, Is that, I don't want to say they're lying cause that's a, that's a reach, but I want to say like, is there more to the story? I want to ask the question of like, it wasn't, if it was just like this and why, like, I know that we've been really pushing for we as a society or educators pushing for more black men in education because black men apparently are unicorns that can do magical things for children and blah, blah, blah.

I don't know. Okay. But. Was it that? Well, like they're like, I don't know what that's about, but it just really, and [00:19:00] it really was Kevin who pointed that out, um, in one of our interviews at the end. And I'm just curious about it. Right.

Kevin Adams: Oh, no. And the reason why it comes to me is because, you know, as we sit through these interviews, I think about my own career and my own experiences and some of the things that that have not been that have been said to these women that I have never had said to me, not once.

And, and it makes me ask questions right have I not been pushing enough. And then I think back to times where I've really pushed and put stuff out there you know and. and advocated, you know, and, and then it makes me think, well, you know, how does it play into that intersectionality of it all play into it?

And, and again, I think we know that, that the black women carry, carry the burden of the world, right? The black women carry the burden of the world and in a classroom. And, and it's, it's fascinating, you know, as, as my. [00:20:00] And I don't know how far I can go into this, but I've been, recently, I was shared as a member of the bargaining team with some data around our, um, observation system.

And, and, um, you know, as like you guys said, researchers, you know, put this data and it was very surprising when it came to, um, bias related to our observation system and the results. Um, that really said there's not a lot of bias towards black women in our, in our school district when it comes to observation and evaluation, which was fascinating, you know, which was very different from experiences that I've had where black women have been talked about, have that I know, and we've heard interviewed, talked about how things show up in their professionalism comments about how they engage in the work, how they carry themselves, How approachable are they?

Right? And so, like, I think, I feel like the only way black women are accepted [00:21:00] is if they're super, right? If they do everything and they never question any

Gerardo Munoz: of it. Or there's the assumption, there's this assumption that black women have such resilience and such strength that they do not need to be cared for and they do not need to be supported and they do not need to be loved by the, by their superiors.

And so it's, it's a backhanded compliment. And that's, that's the

Kevin Adams: really scary stuff because that goes back to black women can take more pain. Black women can, can, uh, they can carry more of a burden. They're, they're natural caregivers, so they can care beyond what they care for themselves. Right. All of that stuff is rooted in those ideas.

Right. And so I, and this is where I get back to, like, I don't, I don't really see people willing to challenge Some of the key root causes of these [00:22:00] issues, right? If, if a black woman

Gerardo Munoz: raises her voice.

Kevin Adams: And she's going to be called progressive and we're not going to put a way for her to be protected from that or to train people to understand that that she's not being intimidated to you, that this, this is just a way of expression.

Right. And other individuals who express themselves that way are never called aggressive. Sorry about that.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Never. Kevin has a house phone. We got a

Kevin Adams: landline. I'm I'm 45 Asia. We talked to one stop it. Here we are.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Stop it. Yeah, we did not wrong. Kevin. I think too. I think that. I don't think I know that the invisible labor that black women experience from having so many kids in their classroom.

Right. I have a good friend, um, shout out to Lakeisha who she's just leaving teaching because [00:23:00] she's tired of the principal putting so many kids in her classroom who I'm quoting heavily here, like our behavior issues for everyone else. Right. And, and she's going to the principal and saying, why are you doing this?

And it's like, well, you can handle them. And this is a black principal doing this to her. Yeah, right. Well, right.

Gerardo Munoz: And that plays into the sort of internalized white supremacy that we see oftentimes in communities of color. And I can't, I can't speak to black experiences with this except for as a listener.

But I know that in my community, um, the Latinx community, there are a couple of wild things that are happening. So politically, um, brown women Are you know, they support progressive policies and Democratic Party politics for whatever those are to support those at a rate of 91 that the men not so much, um, the Republican Party and, uh, and, uh, the [00:24:00] former president, whose name escapes me right now, um, has seen, yeah, I don't know, has seen more gains with Latinos.

Like men than any other group. And so I think about what happens when, when we become careerists as Paulo Freire will frame it. When we become people who are willing to climb the ladder and use our own community as the rungs. So I think these are things and Asia, I really appreciate what you said about that invisible labor because it makes me think of what our friends at get solid talk about all the time, which is that if you're talking about professional violence towards black and brown women in educational systems in capitalism, that's labor exploitation, that's putting too many kids in the classroom.

That's and we know that black male teachers also will get it. The quote unquote behavior problems and they'll get the, but, but increasingly, you know, it's, it's [00:25:00] more in, in the classrooms of black women educators. And so when we talk about, you know, these working conditions, the racial battle fatigue, would you say, is it fair to say that it's rooted in labor exploitation?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Oh yeah, a hundred percent. Um, and I also, I also, I'm trying to think about, I know the conversation of, Black women teaching and then the family. Right.

Gerardo Munoz: So that's the

Dr. Asia Lyons: piece. Yeah. That's the piece too. Right. So I think this is something that needs to be talked about and considered is like, we take care of family, right.

Cause traditionally you're supposed to blah, blah, blah, whatever. And like what that also brings on the expectations to take care of your family. And then also the sacrifices that family make for black women to stay in teaching. Right. And so that's a part of the conversation that we need to have more is what does it mean to be a black educator, women, woman, [00:26:00] um, non binary male, whatever.

What does it mean to be in education and have a family who is supporting you in this space, knowing that every single day you're coming home talking about all the racism that you're experiencing. Like, how does your family take that on? Right. Um, I, I, you know, I remember when I was doing my research and I was interviewing a woman who is still in teaching and she said that she talks about, I asked her, like, how often do you talk about the racialized experiences you have in school?

And she said, every day. And she said, I don't know what else we would talk about. Yeah, she said, I don't know what else we would talk about as a family. If I didn't have these things to talk about.

Gerardo Munoz: Wow. That's really sad. It displaces. Other topics that could be 100 percent at the dinner table and and then because there's all this trauma and all this pain to process and it's [00:27:00] really tough to process it alone.

Kev, what were you gonna say on that? No, I'm

Kevin Adams: just awful. Again, it's it's it's a horrible experience where where it's just staying with you and that's the only place where you have, and then it's. It just burdens your family. Mm-Hmm. Because we come home and you're in a bad mood. You know, you're, you're mad, you're upset, you know about what happened, and then your family gets tired of hearing about it.

They're like, oh yeah, here I, now I have to hear about so and so

Gerardo Munoz: again. And it's just quit. Then just quit. Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: So, or stick in it because of the last one is in third is almost done with high school. Then we Yeah. That, that, that conversation is big too. Is the Just stick. That's real. One. Stick in it. Real.

Yep. Just stick in it. And I feel like the, just stick in it is a. It's happening more when I talk to folks than it is just quit. Yeah, right. Or like, or the person, the educator, I don't, they would say like, I'm just going to a couple more years because my. You know, I need, I'm in the district, but we're not, our house isn't in a district [00:28:00] and I need to just make sure they get through high school because I like the district, but we don't live there.

Like all these little nuances. Right. And it's, it's, that's the piece, right. It's this, it's that psychological negotiation that we're constantly having that keeps black teachers. probably teachers in general, but black teachers specifically in that space, right? What? Yeah.

Gerardo Munoz: Sorry. Were you finished? Okay. Yeah.

Like I just got excited because one thing that I observed over, over the run of the exit interview, just again, from the producer's chair is Noticing how the educators and former educators that you all interviewed were really happening outside. Um, some weird birds out here, man. Um, it blew in from somewhere.

Um, so what I observed was that they all could speak really openly [00:29:00] about Um, difficult dynamics with colleagues, difficult dynamics with parents, difficult dynamics with administration, but they hadn't actually made the connection to how, how it affected their family lives until you ask the question. And when you ask the question, they're like, Well, yeah, I mean, I kind of come.

Oh, right, because I think the thing that that the end, you know, we've seen the term racial battle fatigue. pop up in some other areas. But the piece that always gets left out is the impact on the home life and the impact on the relationships you have at home. And where that labor that, that you are carrying, um, taxes, you have nothing out left when you

Dr. Asia Lyons: get home.

Yeah. And imagine being two black educators in, um, trying to do that. Right. So then where's the space if you have Children that you support or that you are raising. What? [00:30:00] Like, yeah,

Gerardo Munoz: that's I mean for me is terrible. You know, for me is the first, um, from my Mexican side to finish college degree. The other thing I think about, cause you were talking about, you know, um, folks talking about, you know, should I just stick, should I just tough it out?

Like that kind of thing. Um, for me, that's been a very real like tension is like, This job is taking a lot out of me, but I could actually be the first person in my family to have a relatively predictable and comfortable retirement. And so where the stakes are higher for people of color, I feel like they're not as high for the predominantly white teaching workforce.

Um, so we, you know, I feel like I'm kind of tap dancing around this question because I think well, I have an idea what the answer is. Um, but I think we also, um, I think we, I think Kevin, you open the [00:31:00] conversation by saying the situation is dire. So can anything be done to address this situation?

I mean, well, I won't pull the magazine cover yet. I mean,

Kevin Adams: can anything I think things can be done. I think things can be done. And I can't wait to hear Asia's response. I don't think

Gerardo Munoz: watching it right now.

Kevin Adams: I don't think people are willing to do it. That's, that's what I, uh, that's what I see

Gerardo Munoz: what that is.

Like, say, say what it is that they, I mean, I

Kevin Adams: think really it's being willing to, to ultimately challenge. And this is everywhere, right? In every industry, every endeavor in this country to ultimately challenge white supremacy, right? Supremacist culture at its roots, right? And the schoolhouse is an institution that was built.

It permeated these ideas, right? And no matter how many resolutions on equity or black excellence or [00:32:00] all of it that we can put out there. Those are just words, right? And in the end, if we, if we do not attack the root cause, you cannot,

Dr. Asia Lyons: if you

Kevin Adams: can't, you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause. That you can't heal the symptoms.

Right? So like we are not, you're not addressing the ultimate cause. It's white supremacy in this country and the system that exists. And I don't think, and I have not seen a willingness to attack, indict, change, transform any of the things that we talk about. Right? And I think it goes to all sorts of things.

I mean, professional, evaluating professionalism, as long as that's going to be there, you're going to, it's going to be used against black educators to say, you're not living up to what you should be. And

Gerardo Munoz: maybe the reality is that any system, any, [00:33:00] well, any tool or practice that is put in place that is Without black educators at the table will inherently be a weapon against black educators.

Um, I think, I think it's one of those things where people think of white supremacy as this intentional, um, everyday practice. But what I try to push back on people is that white supremacy is the default setting. So... Those who do harm, do harm. Those who do nothing, also do harm. Because when you do nothing, it defaults to that default setting.

Which is, okay, well if it can't, if we're not going to make it anything else, we're just going to leave it the way it is, it's going to be white supremacy whether we try to or not. Um, Asia, your thoughts?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Well,

Gerardo Munoz: you already know my thoughts. I know yours not. The audience probably knows too, but let's, let's get them out here.

Dr. Asia Lyons: So I just, I want to say, yeah, yes, exactly what Kevin said. And I also want [00:34:00] to say that what's not being acknowledged is the history, right? The history and it's, and of, of black education, black, black excellence, which I'm using very lightly here. Yeah. Desegregation, segregation. We're also not acknowledging.

That we're talking about retention. I taught at CU Denver, um, as an adjunct professor in their school education, um, for three years. And I taught a class that most K 6 students who were pre service teachers had to go through to continue their program. So I saw just about everybody, and on no hands I can count the black male educators.

That came through me through my class and then three or four black pre service teachers came through my classroom in, in, in the six semesters that I taught. And I will say that one of the teachers that I taught asked me in class or pre service teachers asked me in class. [00:35:00] You know, like, will I experience racism when I enter teaching?

And she asked me that because when she was doing her hours for my class, or not for, excuse me, not for my class, for a different class, she had a racialized experience from one of her, with one of the teachers that was there. So before she even gets into the classroom space as an educator, when she's just simply getting her hours and supporting a teacher, she's experiencing racial battle fatigue.

Yeah. So we can't even get folks to come to finish out programs.

Gerardo Munoz: Yeah. And especially now when, when we look at the data on, on who, on who is entering. Teacher preparation programs. Those numbers are down across the board anyway, and I would be really interested to know how those numbers bear out racially.

My assumption is that Is it the overall numbers are probably down in my guess would be among black and brown would be [00:36:00] educators. It's even like those numbers are plummeting and it probably a more precipitous rate. Do you I don't know if you're aware of anything out there at this I guess it's hard to say as school years are just about to get started.

So we may not know for a few weeks but

Dr. Asia Lyons: first shout out for the word precipitous. Because using vocabulary,

Kevin Adams: I'm telling you a million dollar word. Ding, ding, ding, telling you.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Um, I looked up before we started taping time magazine, put out an article January, 2022, um, about the 2020, 2021 school year, and it.

Um, it says black teachers were more than twice as likely as other teachers in the winter of 2021 to say they plan to leave their jobs at the end of the 2020 2021 school year, according to report released by the Rand Corporation. Wow. Right. So, and this was articles called public schools are struggling to retain black teachers, these ex teachers explain why, [00:37:00] and it came out January.

5th 2022. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, teacher education, like I said, Colorado is fairly white, duh, right? But I, I would say that in my, in my classroom, in my, it's fairly white, but in my classroom of teachers, in higher ed, my last semester, They struggle to get teachers there. I have my classroom. I have very low numbers and it was maybe 95 percent white women.

Gerardo Munoz: Yeah. And, and I'm, and I can tell you from, from my program where I was scheduled to do some teacher prep coursework courses and some teacher candidate supervision. I will be doing that because we don't have enough people. We have, um, You know, the enrollment's down. And so if we take the, the data that you located from the Rand Corporation and [00:38:00] we project it forward, right?

So if what these black educators were saying, they were feeling in January, if, if that, if that followed to its logical conclusion, so what, what we have is, is we are burning the teacher for us of the black teacher force at both ends, we are keeping the ones that we have and we aren't enticing any to come into the work, right?

So dire, right, Kev?

Kevin Adams: I mean, this is what they say, right? This is what they say they want. Is more black educators who they want, they want us to come in and they want us to stay here. Right. And, and I don't know if I, if you asked me what would I say, remember Gerardo we went and spoke with those incoming educators.

That's always a hard conversation. What do you say to make black educators in particular, come into this come into this job, you're going to experience microaggressions blatant racism. [00:39:00] People calling you aggressive because you're advocating for the kids or

Gerardo Munoz: students, people being wrong about people, single minute of the

Kevin Adams: day, people dismissing you, uh, ignoring your contributions, taking credit for your work that you do.

Listen,

Gerardo Munoz: listen, and I can't even do that anymore because I'm not in the classroom. So like, Hey, come be a classroom teacher. I'm not, but you should be, let's kind of look at it. So my friend Brooke Brown, uh, 2021 Washington teacher of the year, um, She and I and I think she learned this from either Adrian Marie Brown or Miriam Kovach.

I don't remember what source she she cited here, but she talks about social justice work being science fiction, right, that, you know, kind of. kind of following the example of the great Octavia Butler, that you have to be able to envision a world that does not yet [00:40:00] exist, and you have to be able to envision that world so palpably and so concretely that you believe it exists, right?

Is there a science fiction version of this story? And Ajay, before, while y'all marinate on that, What you said about teaching the history. I really don't want that piece to get glossed over and I don't want the listeners to miss that piece because it is no mistake that this panic over a quote unquote critical race theory.

It coincides with the with the mass. Uh, removal of black educators. Well, if we don't want to teach black history, and we don't want to teach the uncomfortable parts of American history, how can we expect the people who have come from those heritages to be a part of the system? And someone else put something, um, I'm going to look for it while y'all process, but yeah, is there a science fiction version?

Of this story of [00:41:00] black educators in America.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I just want to say one thing before I'm gonna let Kevin answer that first, but I want to say something about what you're saying, you know, um, Derrick Bell, who is the father of

Kevin Adams: critical race. Get out of my mind, I was going to mention Derrick Bell

Gerardo Munoz: too. All right, go ahead.

Yeah, I mean,

Dr. Asia Lyons: listen, yeah, he has a, he has something called a Derrick Bell reader, which is an anthology of a lot of his work. And so much of what, so much of his work focused on the desegregation of schools. Yeah. And what it would do and how it impacted us and how much of a lie it was and how, and so I just find it, I mean, yeah, the man, I mean, 1970s, man, bingo.

Right. Long gone. Right. Yeah. Kimberly Crenshaw obviously was a student of his, carries on his work today, but he was talking about this a long, long time ago. Right? And we, we in America love to be like, fresh start, clean start, new year, new you, all this [00:42:00] bullshit. And they're doing the same thing in education and it's not working because black folks are like, uh uh, same year, same me, same you, same whatever.

And the more we keep doing that brand new start, new initiative, clean slate, blueprint, green print. But the more we do that and pretend like we have something new and not acknowledge. And not just like last year, but for all these years, the longer we just do not acknowledge, the more we're going to go on and have these conversations, period.

So Kevin, Afrofuturism, what do you think? I mean, whenever

Kevin Adams: you get to that, I speak as space traders. And I'm like, well, what would they come? What if they come and say, say, we want all of your black educators. We're going to take, it will fix your education. It will fix all the gaps. All you have to do is give us all of your black educators.

We don't, we're not going to tell you what we want it for, right? Because they want us because they see us as a [00:43:00] solution to the problem, right? But they don't really want us to be the solution

Gerardo Munoz: to the problem. Well, they see, they see all as a solution to a problem that they have not identified. So they, they know that there's a talking point and they know that they turned their little social media profile pictures to a black square two years ago.

Um, and so they know they have to do the thing or appear to be doing the thing. Like I, I think in Asia, I think what you were sort of talking about with, uh, with Dr. Bell and the, and that. And in that prophetic voice was this idea of interest convergence. Right. And the idea that white supremacy and white people will just not act until a benefit can be manufactured for them.

Yeah. What is

Dr. Asia Lyons: a benefit? We know the answer to this. But they cannot imagine there being a benefit of having a black teacher in front of a white student.

Gerardo Munoz: Well, you know, it's interesting though, [00:44:00] because the data obviously shows that, um, that teachers of color, particularly black teachers are good for all kids, not just black kids.

But, but, but that's kind of where it's like when we're engaging families and kids. That's rarely where the problem starts. Right? It's internal. It's like this. It's, uh, what's Talib Kweli's, um, you know, line from Beautiful Struggle. Um, looking for the, looking for the cure, but you can't see what's hurting you, right?

Because it's inside. Um, it's personal. Um, and when I think Afrofuturism, I think Sun Ra. And they don't want,

Kevin Adams: and they don't want to... People don't want to take the, they don't want to admit it, right? That like the dominant culture, the people who are involved in this, they want to say, well, we've done some things and that's helped to fix it.

Right. And again, it's that experience of what we've done this, we've done that, but I think for black educators, it feels like you haven't done anything for those of us who've been around and been through it, [00:45:00] it feels like you've done very

Gerardo Munoz: little. I think it's interesting. So what I've done is I've like set.

This up as a really complex question. I'm starting to hear from both of you. It's not that complex. What it is, is you celebrate. The presence of black teachers for who they are. You support them for who they are. You let them show up as their authentic selves. You let them sit at tables of power and actually have decision making power and have a voice.

You let them advance as them selves. Is it that simple? So

Dr. Asia Lyons: yes. And you teach the history. This is, this is the issue with that. This is the thing. 'cause you've lost our trust. So it's gonna be years of doing that before you start seeing a return. Yeah. In my mind, I could be dead wrong, but in my mind, it would take like, yeah, they're doing that now.

Let's watch them now. Sure. Sure. Sure. It would take a long time before the tide turns because [00:46:00] again, the history. Yeah. Right. It's been more than

Gerardo Munoz: two years. It's been more

Dr. Asia Lyons: than two years. Yeah. And you think of, I mean just how black folks around the country responded to like vaccines for COVID. Yeah. How long did we, like Tuskegee happened?

Yeah. So like, it's going to take a lot. Of a long time of of districts showing and I don't think that folks are going to want to do that work for that long. They're gonna be like, we said we were we're going to change and you're not changing. So we're forgetting. We're just not right. Well,

Gerardo Munoz: yeah. Yeah. And I think to to that point, when you when you take the 10, 000 foot view, what we have is we have an educational system that denied access to black people in America.

When it was established that if you are a black person, you could not get educated. They were faster to get a police force in place before they could get schools in place for black people to attend. So what we're looking at is, so what we're telling you is that we denied you [00:47:00] systematically access to education.

But now we really need you. And over 150 years has passed in that time.

Dr. Asia Lyons: We've been, they've denied us access to white education. So black people have educated ourselves for all, for

Kevin Adams: ever.

Gerardo Munoz: Apologizing is such an

Dr. Asia Lyons: important copy. You're good. No. Yeah. We, we figured out a long time ago how to sneak out sheets of the Bible to learn how to read and how to read the stars and blah, blah, blah.

So they denied us. Yes. new books. They've denied us working school buses. They've denied us fill in the blank, but they have, they cannot deny us education because we always had it. Yeah. However, and maybe that's the

Gerardo Munoz: solution. Ooh, Kevin just hit a mic drop.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Kevin's out, right? Kevin's out. He's like, I got nothing to add.

Yeah. Maybe that's this, maybe that's a part of the solution. Yeah. Right. It's thinking about. Let's just take, what if we just take this off the table of like going and working in public school systems and think about a [00:48:00] Black Lives Matter 5280 school shout out to our next, hypothetically, hypothetically, like, cause this is not working.

We're, we're, we're in loops and circles and going over and over again. So if we took this off the table, we said this will never ever happen. Just forget it, you'll never get the respect you deserve. Just forget thinking about it. How will we show up differently for ourselves and we choose to teach? I don't mean that, but I mean, yeah.

How would we choose if we choose to stay in the classroom? Then

Gerardo Munoz: what? And that's that, that is sort of the science fiction, like sort of thing where we, we have not, we. We have kept like these have been these educational spaces you refer to have been fugitive spaces, right? These have been spaces where, where, you know, they had to exist in secret.

They had to exist away from the gaze of white supremacy. So what if we [00:49:00] just legitimize it and say this is just going to be what it is and we legitimize it for ourselves and we make that happen. Um, Kev, you there?

Dr. Asia Lyons: I think Kevin has some bad internet.

Gerardo Munoz: He says his internet is struggling. Well, so maybe, uh, this would be a good time to kind of take it home and, you know, sort of, uh, sort of put a, um, put this one in the canister and get it ready to get in front of the people.

So as Let's see. Can you

Kevin Adams: hear me? My internet's

Gerardo Munoz: We can hear you.

All right. If you're talking, we cannot hear you. All right. Um, here. I'm going to pause real quick. Oh, I know you're recording. Just pause for a second.

All righty. Apologies for the technical difficulties. Um, internets are racist as it turns out. So, um, so we're here. We're going to [00:50:00] go ahead and take this home. We're going to wrap up and, um, and give a little bit of foreshadowing, a little bit of musing on the future at this moment. Um, Dr. Asia Lyons, Kevin Adams.

With the work that we've done with the exit interview, a question may emerge for a lot of people that if it's the same story over and over again, and if we already know what the experiences of black educators, particularly black women educators are going to be, and if we know that the healing process that would be needed.

Put that would hypothetically bring black educators back into American classrooms, even if there was the patience to do that. It just doesn't seem like the answer. Like, why do we keep, why do we want to keep telling these stories? Why do we want to keep being out here with these stories? Um, and that's not a question I have, but that's a question that others may have is like, okay, like that we [00:51:00] know how this is going to happen.

Um, why should we keep doing it?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Um, I'll go first if that's okay, Kevin. Yeah, go ahead. When I, when I thought about this podcast and I thought about my reasonings behind this podcast, the purpose of it, and it will always be, to let Black educators know that there is a whole world outside of teaching that appreciates and supports you.

It's not about It's about the classroom teacher, obviously, but there's this part we ask that's the most important, which is like two questions. The first one is. What are you doing now that you've left the classroom? And so that's, that's what I want black educators. And this is who the podcast is for, is for black educators, right?

I want black educators to hear folks saying I'm doing X and Y and Z and still impacting youth and doing these things and working for this nonprofit and doing this consulting work [00:52:00] or working for myself or working for myself. Right. I want folks to hear that. Black teachers to hear that and say like, you know what?

I knew that person and I knew they left, but I wonder what happened. And she's not dead. She didn't disappear in the ether. He didn't whatever they continue on. We continue on to support youth in all types of ways, support our communities in all types of ways. And that's, that's why I am here to make sure that black educators who are in our audience understand that there is.

If you have chosen that psychological negotiation, if you and your family have had that conversation and it's something that you're considering, know that there are people out here doing it and they are thriving, they are thriving. So that's, that's why I continue to make sure that we have folks on this show.

That tell their story because we are thriving out here, Kevin. Yeah, I, I mean, [00:53:00] I

Kevin Adams: think, I think that's so important. Right. And I think back, you know, we think about the history and like, uh, what you brought up Asia, that black people have always found a way to get our education. Right? And, and I think what it comes back to is they're, they're always going to try to prove that we are inept and, and, and somehow less than, right?

And, and education in school is a very easy way to do that, especially when the school is, uh,

Gerardo Munoz: dominated by white culture. And so when, when I, when I. Start to think about is, you know, what are those,

Kevin Adams: what, what is the way that we can plan for the future that takes us out of the system, right. That removes, uh, you know, black people from this system because we know that the system wasn't intended for us.

Right. And so I think that's the important thing. What are those other ways that we can still get to our people, educate, inspire children, let them know [00:54:00] where they come from. And I think that's the most inspiring thing. That I get from the exit interview that I,

Gerardo Munoz: and I, and I thank you Asia for always raising that up and going back to

Kevin Adams: that point is that there are other options.

And then I think about the history, and in particular, that being a teacher was one of the few opportunities that black women had.

Gerardo Munoz: Right. In when we

Kevin Adams: had segregated schools and black women lost that opportunity, right? And black women were dynamic at it. And we all

Gerardo Munoz: know people who grew up with

Kevin Adams: black educators, uh, in, in segregated schools, right?

Either.

Gerardo Munoz: Because of redlining

Kevin Adams: or because legally they were segregated. Right. And we know that those women were incredible. And when they went and started to teach in white schools, those same teachers, those same black women were often criticized for their approaches. And I've seen it happen. Right. I've seen it happen in my [00:55:00] career

Gerardo Munoz: where they were older black women in

Kevin Adams: particular criticized for their approaches.

So I think it's important for us to see that we've moved past those times and that black women in particular. Can can accomplish amazing things beyond the system that. has been sanctioned and established by the dominant white supremacist culture.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Munoz: Yeah. So folks may come to this podcast when they see the exit interview pop up on their feed.

And when we typically think of an exit interview, when most people think of an exit interview, an exit interview. Um, is framed to benefit the employer, right? Well, if you'll do, if you'll do an exit interview with us, and then we can just learn from it and maybe make the institution better and make this, make this whole thing better.

But what we're doing here with 2DALT Productions exit interview is to say, here's how I exited. This [00:56:00] is just one way you can do it. And if you have those doubts, If you have those hesitations, if this is taking more out of you than what it's giving you, you don't have to stay. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Adams: Well, y'all.

That's it.

Gerardo Munoz: That's important.

Kevin Adams: I think it's an important lesson, right? And, and, and you can still impact change. And possibly at a

Gerardo Munoz: greater level. I was just going to say, when we look at what some of these folks are doing it, like, you know, Like real inspiring

Kevin Adams: work, which is why I'm so excited for our next guest that is coming on the exit

Gerardo Munoz: interview.

Yeah. Who's that next guest.

Dr. Asia Lyons: So our next guest is Branta Lockett. Branta Lockett is a part of the Black Lives Matter 5280 crew. She is the executive director of their freedom school. [00:57:00] And she's talking to us about her experience in education as an educator. And now with, along with so many dope teachers, dope folks in the community, um, is trying to open up a freedom school here in Denver.

And I'm sure she'll, I don't know if she will or not, but I'm sure she'll talk about the experience of what that's been like and the why and what they've been doing, what they've been doing so far. I know they had a summer camp this summer that was waitlisted. So many kids went to it. So we'll definitely talk to her.

Um, and she's talking about and she's living in that Afrofuturism, right? She's living in that space where black folks are here for black folks with black folks. Yeah, so we're excited for that. That's gonna be a great

Gerardo Munoz: episode for sure. And I feel like, um, I feel like, uh, Branta Lockett will have a couple of exit interviews to give.

I feel like there's a couple of sets of experiences that, um, that exist there in her world. So, well, Dr. Asia Lyons. Kevin Adams, thank you so much for just doing this [00:58:00] deep reflection, this fearless reflection, this, um, this just completely real and authentic reflection with me this evening. Um, folks, if you Like what you're getting here with the exit interview follow us at two dope teachers on all social media platforms You can also if you you know, I don't know want to support grassroots people of color created media You can go to patreon.

com slash two dope teachers got some big things coming in the next few weeks and months y'all You want to get in on a you want to be able to support it and you know what? I'm gonna say this again We, we have stickers. We have t shirts. We don't have swag. We don't have a million things that we can give you.

But the important thing is whether you're actually supporting, um, this work because there isn't really any other platform like this one. Um, and so come here and support it. You can get advanced episodes of the exit interview of Habitually disruptive [00:59:00] with me, Gerardo Munoz, and of course, the flagship podcast, Two Dope Teachers and a Mic.

Um, in the coming weeks, Kevin and I will also talk about how our relationship has changed on the podcast, and how the podcast may be a little bit different in, um, the months and years to come. So, thank you all for being here. Um, we are looking forward to engaging with you. For at least another school year.

Peace y'all.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Peace out.